View Poll Results: Is Taxation Slavery?

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  • Yes

    18 17.14%
  • No

    78 74.29%
  • Other (Explain)

    9 8.57%
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Thread: Is Taxation Slavery?

  1. #341
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post




    Yes.... and as we know, they carry no legal force.

    That's a disingenuous argument. While they do not carry legal force they do influence it greatly.

  2. #342
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Ultimately government "legitimacy" comes from its ability to kill people and remain in existence
    Exactly, its legitimacy is derived through the illegitimate use of force.

  3. #343
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Are you with me so far?
    No. You still haven't shown where I have taken issue with the federal power to suppress insurrection.

    Nor does anything you have posted change the fact that insurrection and secession are, by definition, different things.
    If the states did not seceed, then there was an insurrection. If they did, then there was not, because, by defintion, there could be no insurrection
    Its -that- simple.

    So then, to the issue oI actually presented:
    If the states did not seceed as you argue, then they were unconstitionally forced to ratify certain amenments.
    Get it yet?

    The federal government cannot force states to ratify amendments, and so, the 13th-15th were ratified unconstitutionally.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 07-13-10 at 09:39 PM.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    That's a disingenuous argument[
    It is absolutely true.

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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It is absolutely true.
    Parse, parse, parse.

  6. #346
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    Parse, parse, parse.
    Siorry that simple truths are so ifficult for you to understand.

  7. #347
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    I took the liberty of correcting your typo’s while not changing your post in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    IIRC Texas v. White was a post-war decision; if it makes secession unconstitutional, it does so from the point of the decision, and not points prior.
    Absolutely wrong as I already pointed out.

    When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.

    Since the Union or Federal Government did not recognize the Confederacy as legitimate or separate even before the court decision, you have no valid point whatsoever.

    Let’s go a little further shall we?

    Considered therefore as transactions under the Constitution, the ordinance of secession, adopted by the convention and ratified by a majority of the citizens of Texas, and all the acts of her legislature intended to give effect to that ordinance, were absolutely null. They were utterly without operation in law. The obligations of the State, as a member of the Union, and of every citizen of the State, as a citizen of the United States, remained perfect and unimpaired. It certainly follows that the State did not cease to be a State, nor her citizens to be citizens of the Union. If this were otherwise, the State must have become foreign, and her citizens foreigners. The war must have ceased to be a war for the suppression of rebellion, and must have become a war for conquest and subjugation.

    So it would appear that Texas, and the other suceeding states had never been outside the Union. So according to US law the state actions taken to implement the Ordinance of Secession were null and void.

    Sort of puts a crimp in your argument doesent it? But lets move on to the final nail.

    The authority for the performance of the first had been found in the power to suppress insurrection and carry on war; for the performance of the second, authority was derived from the obligation of the United States to guarantee to every State in the Union a republican form of government. The latter, indeed, in the case of a rebellion which involves the government of a State and for the time excludes the National authority from its limits, seems to be a necessary complement to the former” – Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1868) at Cornell University Law School Supreme Court collection

    Oh that has got to hurt!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Question:
    If it is impossible to secede from the union, then it is impossible to re-admit 'secessionist' states to the union because they never actually left said union.
    They were not “re-admitted” at any point. This I have shown in absolute clarity above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    However, the 'secessionist' states, as part of their process for 're-admission' to the union, were required to ratify the 13th-15th amendments.
    They were under a military government until their legislatures adopted the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the United States Constitution. This is the price they paid for their insurrection. If they wanted to be part of the government of the Union again, and get ride of the temporary military government, they had no choice but to comply. Their political status varied from state to state, but in no way were they “re-admitted” to the Union.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The federal government cannot force states to ratify amendments, and so weren't the 13th-15th were ratified unconstitutionally?
    According to the SCOTUS, the Federal Government and myself, no.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-13-10 at 09:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #348
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Yes today we have a far more advanced market economy there is even less of a reason for the state.

    It wasn't a small group it was the Pennsylvania colony and what the hell does being Quaker have to do with it? You must be confusing the Quakers with the Puritans. Not all Quakers are even theists let alone Christians, some Quakers are secular humanists, some are Athiests, some Quakers are even Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans and Jews. So actually you would be correct that is what America is made up of.

    Civil war is not anarchy.

    "Who says anarchy, says negation of government;
    Who says negation of government, says affirmation of the people;
    Who says affirmation of the people, says individual liberty;
    Who says individual liberty, says sovereignty of each;
    Who says sovereignty of each, says equality;
    ...Who says equality, says solidarity or fraternity;
    Who says fraternity, says social order.
    By contrast:
    Who says government, says negation of the people;
    Who says negation of the people, says affirmation of political authority;
    Who says affirmation of political authority, says individual dependency;
    Who says individual dependency, says class supremacy,
    Who says class supremacy, says inequality;
    Who says inequality, says antagonism;
    Who says antagonism, says civil war;
    From which it follows that who says government, says civil war. Yes, anarchy is order, whereas government is civil war. -- Anselme Bellegarrigue

    You have not given one legitimate reason why not.

    I'm an individualist not a communist thanks.
    Ummm not all communes are communist.

    Anyway, I don't care. If you want to live in your fantasy world, be my guest. As long as you realize it ain't going to happen and you are waisting yours and everyone else's time with this "anarchy" vision of utopia.

    And libertarians still wonder why they are a joke to the rest of the nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #349
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Ah -- the "love it or leave it" argument.
    Be sure to recall this remark the next time a Republican-controlled government does someting you do not like.
    Thats not the same. You can dislike the tax policy, or any policy. And I have a right to vote for people who I believe will change the policy for the better. But the question is whether or not taxation is slavery or not. And it isn't, because you do have the right to leave. Slaves don't.

  10. #350
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Thats not the same. You can dislike the tax policy, or any policy. And I have a right to vote for people who I believe will change the policy for the better. But the question is whether or not taxation is slavery or not. And it isn't, because you do have the right to leave. Slaves don't.
    when people like him leave (and it is happening all the time-a multii millionaire I know sold his company and took all his money to the Turks and Cacos where the greedy dems cannot touch it) people who feel like you are going to pay the price

    the rich deal from a position of power and the poor's only power comes from voting for other elites who will buy their votes using the wealth of others. HOwever, the poor cannot stop that wealth from leaving and when it does they are screwed--much like birds who come to depend on a bird feeder all winter

    one day, when the owner dies or stops putting out the feed, lots of birds starve to death.



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