View Poll Results: Is Taxation Slavery?

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  • Yes

    18 17.14%
  • No

    78 74.29%
  • Other (Explain)

    9 8.57%
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Thread: Is Taxation Slavery?

  1. #301
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    No.
    Then what's your issue with that statemment?

    Yes it does, the states seceding was considered an insurrection.
    Secession and Insurrection have different meanings:
    Secession is to withdraw from a union.
    Insurrection is to openly revolt against a constituted government.

    There's nothing about secession that necessitates an open revolt; one can have one without the other, just as easily as one can have one WITH the other.

    Given that, the power to suppress insurrection cannot, in an if itself create any prohibition against simple secession.

    Secession began 12/24/60. The CSA were formed 2/8/61. The war began 4/12/61.

    You can argue, if you want, that an insurrection began 4/12/61, but as secession preceeded the war by a significant period of time, your argument can only stand if you can show that, thru the act of secession, the states did not actually leave the union -- if they HAD left the union, thru secession, then the war was not an insurrectiuon but a war between two states (USA and CSA).

    To do THAT you have to show that secession is prohibited by the Constitution, which you -cannot- do by citing the power to suppress insurrection.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 07-13-10 at 04:49 PM.

  2. #302
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Really.
    Explain, in concise and verifiable terms what part of Article I Sec 8 gives Congress the power to force states to ratify proposed amendments, and how said power actually confers such an authority.


    ...which I have fully addressed.
    Nothing in anything I have posted in any way questions the federal authority to suppress insurrections

    Now, perhaps, you can address what I asked:
    The federal government cannot force states to ratify amendments, and so weren't the 13th-15th ratified unconstitutionally?
    No because at the time those states were under martial law because of their insurrection, thereby disqualifying them from voting much like felons lose their right to vote. So it's a moot point.

  3. #303
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    No because at the time those states were under martial law because of their insurrection, thereby disqualifying them from voting much like felons lose their right to vote.
    Please show me where in the Constitution the federal government is specifically given the power to prevent and/.or prohibit states from voting to ratify an amendment.

    And THEN, if these states were not ABLE to vote for the amendments, why did they?
    And THEN, if these states were not ABLE to vote for the amendments, how were they passed by the required majority of states?

  4. #304
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Please show me where in the Constitution the federal government is specifically given the power to prevent and/.or prohibit states from voting to ratify an amendment.

    And THEN, if these states were not ABLE to vote for the amendments, why did they?
    And THEN, if these states were not ABLE to vote for the amendments, how were they passed by the required majority of states?
    After you show me an amendment where they are allowed to be insurrectionists and secede from the union.

  5. #305
    King Of The Dog Pound
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then what's your issue with that statemment?


    Secession and Insurrection have different meanings:
    Secession is to withdraw from a union.
    Insurrection is to openly revolt against a constituted government.

    There's nothing about secession that necessitates an open revolt; one can have one without the other, just as easily as one can have one WITH the other.

    Given that, the power to suppress insurrection cannot, in an if itself create any prohibition against simple secession.

    Secession began 12/24/60. The CSA were formed 2/8/61. The war began 4/12/61.

    You can argue, if you want, that an insurrection began 4/12/61, but as secession preceeded the war by a significant period of time, your argument can only stand if you can show that, thru the act of secession, the states did not actually leave the union -- if they HAD left the union, thru secession, then the war was not an insurrectiuon but a war between two states (USA and CSA).

    To do THAT you have to show that secession is prohibited by the Constitution, which you -cannot- do by citing the power to suppress insurrection.
    I am not even going to bother responding to this as it is stupid.

    The law dictionary says they are the same. The regular dictionary says they are the same. By succeeding it was an insurrection. The moment they tried to take Federal property, it became illegal.

    I notice you cut that out of my post. I wonder why?

    Take it up with the legal minds.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-13-10 at 05:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #306
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post

    I notice you cut that out of my post. I wonder why?
    It's called parsing or cherry picking.

  7. #307
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    After you show me an amendment where they are allowed to be insurrectionists and secede from the union.
    Since you apparently dont understand the issue here, I'll simplify it for you.

    The question as to If secession is allowed/prohibited by the Consitution is irelevant, as your quandry lies here:
    -If they did not leave the union, they cannot be forced to ratify an amendment.
    -If they did leave the union, there was no insurrection, and then, not being states, are not eligible to ratify an amendment.

    You can have it either way -- but either way directly calls into question the constitutionality of the ratification of the 13th-15th amedments.

    So, which way do you want it? You pick, and then address the relevant issue.

  8. #308
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I am not even going to bother responding to this as it is stupid.
    More likely, its because you do not posess the means to effectively and soundly counter what I said.

    The law dictionary says they are the same. The regular dictionary says they are the same.
    This is, of course, false.

  9. #309
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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    More likely, its because you do not posess the means to effectively and soundly counter what I said.
    No it's because you are trying to play a game because you were wrong, but you know this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This is, of course, false.
    And yet you cut it out of my post rather than respond to it. I wonder why?

    Here for your reading pleasure....

    sedition
    n. the federal crime of advocacy of insurrection against the government or support for an enemy of the nation during time of war, by speeches, publications and organization. Sedition usually involves actually conspiring to disrupt the legal operation of the government and is beyond expression of an opinion or protesting government policy. Sedition is a lesser crime than "treason," which requires actual betrayal of the government, or "espionage." Espionage involves spying on the government, trading state secrets (particularly military) to another country (even a friendly nation), or sabotaging governmental facilities, equipment or suppliers of the government, like an aircraft factory. During U.S. participation in World War II (1941-1945) several leaders of the German-American Bund, a pro-Nazi organization, were tried and convicted of sedition for actively interfering with the war effort. Since freedom of speech, press and assembly are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and because treason and espionage charges can be made for overt acts against the nation's security, sedition charges are rare.

    See also: espionage treason
    - law.com Law Dictionary

    The only thing that is false here is your argument. Of course it is only because the law dictionary disagrees. I guess you know far more then they do.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-13-10 at 05:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #310
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: Is Taxation Slavery?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Yes because it requires your own independent source.
    Why?

    If I or anyone else can use a source you provided to prove your own statements incorrect/partially incorrect...should we refrain from doing so simply because you provided the source?

    What on earth for?

    And, where did these requirements arise from?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Oh before I forget The Mark and Blackdog, liblady did state that the typical rebel soldier was uneducated. She said it in post #116. She asserted and you both defended, so now you have to provide proof to back up her claim.

    Since she asserted that the typical rebel soldier was uneducated she had to provide proof to back up this assertation. She failed to do so. I provided proof of my statements regarding literacy in the south.
    I defended her later statement, not this one.

    Out of context, it would appear that your statement was correct, in that she said rebel soldiers were uneducated.

    But instead, you attacked a statement of hers that was not clear in it's accusation, which led to confusion.

    Lastly, it appears a disconnect exists.

    In my understanding of things, literacy =/= education.

    So proving that southern soldiers were literate =/= proving southern soldiers were educated.

    I see it this way:

    Being literate is a necessary precursor to acquiring an education, but one is not educated if they are ONLY literate.

    In my mind, literacy = communication skills, not knowledge.

    And, education = knowledge, in general.

    Perhaps our definitions are in disagreement?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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