View Poll Results: distact for incest an example of eugenics?

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Thread: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Thanks.

    I'm also well aware of a potential self identified charge of hypocrisy when I read 1069 speaking of "historical/anthropological perspective, or even a Biblical perspectives" - if you believe in the bible, we're all related through from two original ancestors (Adam and Eve) and if you go with evolution, we may all be related through a very small subset of ancestors.

    Biblically - we're all involved in some form of incest anyway. Genetically, we may not all have the exact same two original ancestors but there's a very high chance of a common set of ancestors (no way of knowing how many or few there were)

    My head's spinning.
    Why is you head spinning?
    You must have known that, in the very recent past, most people lived in small, rural, agrarian communities and rarely traveled, as travel was difficult and dangerous.
    Of course such people would have jillions of "common ancestors".
    Who else would they marry, if not each other?

  2. #32
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Biblically - we're all involved in some form of incest anyway. Genetically, we may not all have the exact same two original ancestors but there's a very high chance of a common set of ancestors (no way of knowing how many or few there were)
    I have seen it estimated that no two persons on Earth are less than 50th cousins to one another. At a certain point, you just have to draw the line and say that your degree of affinity-- or consanguinity, if you insist upon involving genetics-- is so obscure as to be irrelevant. I suppose that this would vary from family to family, but I'd say that it takes at most a handful of generations; if neither person has ever met their most recent common ancestor, I'd say their lineage is divergent enough to be acceptable barring exceptional cases.

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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    And, the only reason people may not find their close relatives sexually appealing is because they're told they shouldn't. If they didn't KNOW they were close relatives, they most certainly could/would. So, it's not a biological or "unnatural" thing at all. It's a social thing.
    Shhhh! You're not supposed to say that out loud.

    Like the fact that girls don't start being sexy only after they reach an arbitrary age set by the State, it's something that most people realize but no one is supposed to say.

    If incest is not natural then I wonder what it is - supernatural? Diabolical? The belief that humans were created in God's image is about as plausible as Xmas gifts coming from Santa. I also doubt that human beings are the spawn of the devil, who between old and new testaments, can't seem to decide whether he's God's prosecuting attorney, a Miltonian romantic figure who'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven, or of course Pure Evil Personified. There's another possibility that doesn't require massive leaps of faith: Maybe humans are as much a part of nature as any other animal, and therefore anything they do is natural!
    Last edited by Sov; 07-10-10 at 10:37 AM.
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    -- Like the fact that girls don't start being sexy only after they reach an arbitrary age set by the State, it's something that most people realize but no one is supposed to say.

    If incest is not natural then I wonder what it is --
    OK, I agree that if you leave your pet dogs to it, a male dog can and will mate with his own daughter the first time she comes on heat. We're animals too but if I ever look at my young daughter as a prospective sexual partner I hope someone shoots me. We may be animals but we're also self-aware and aware of the consequences of our own actions: further, we can project and theorise upon the consequences of actions we may or may not take.

    It may be a natural part of the animal kingdom but we mostly (not everyone) do not act on all our more animal instincts.

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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    We may be animals but we're also self-aware and aware of the consequences of our own actions: further, we can project and theorise upon the consequences of actions we may or may not take.
    Humans are not unique in this regard, although many of us like to flatter ourselves as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    It may be a natural part of the animal kingdom but we mostly (not everyone) do not act on all our more animal instincts.
    We can be very good at rationalization in the name of reason, that's for sure.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    No.

    As most people are at least very very distantly related to each other, everyone is likely family somehow (not positive on this, but I thought there was scientific studies tracing everyone's ancestry back to one area of the world?).

    Although inbreeding is one potential reason, I think the major cause of incest taboos is social/cultural.

    I do not know at what point the risks from producing offspring with a family member cease to be an issue (like, second cousin, third cousin, etc.).

    Still, I know that however attractive I find a female relative (Yes, even first cousins...and I can't deny that such has occurred...And regarding a previous post, yes, very likely some were are under 18), I will be very unlikely (as in, not gonna happen) to pursue such if I am aware that they are related to me.

    Part of my “indoctrination” as a child, methinks.
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    Humans are not unique in this regard, although many of us like to flatter ourselves as such.
    I agree, however I wasn't trying to demonstrate that humans are the only animals that can demonstrate self awareness. I'm not arguing any higher innate moral nature in humanity - however if you put many other animals in the situation where an immediate offspring is in sexual heat the elder male relative will try to mate with it's own offspring. I suspect such incest does happen with humans but nobody is going to argue that every female child starts having sex with her father once she becomes capable of sexual reproduction.

    We are self aware enough to realise the consequences - morally / biologically etc of our potential actions or are (as I am) repulsed by the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sov View Post
    We can be very good at rationalization in the name of reason, that's for sure.
    I'd like a bit of clarification please - especially in view of the subject of the thread?

  8. #38
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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Where have all of the geniuses gone? Back in the royal blood days, for every dozen or so attic children, there was a Newton, Descartes, or Fourier born unto this world. The modern taboos of incest have rendered the super genius brain improbable. So in that sense it is a form of eugenics. Or De-eugenics as the case may be.

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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    Where have all of the geniuses gone? Back in the royal blood days, for every dozen or so attic children, there was a Newton, Descartes, or Fourier born unto this world. The modern taboos of incest have rendered the super genius brain improbable. So in that sense it is a form of eugenics. Or De-eugenics as the case may be.
    Interesting theory.
    There don't seem to be many great artists anymore, either.
    It makes me think that in retrospect, these "Great People" really weren't all that great.
    They were probably just considered ordinary during their own lifetimes.
    And perhaps there may be some among us now who will be considered "Great" by future generations.
    Last edited by 1069; 07-11-10 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

    I think it may be the only acceptable form of eugenics. It certainly isn't a religious reasoning which is good enough even though I've read somewhere the problems associated with inbreeding are somewhat overblown. However it is still a reasonable extension of eugenics. I think though that eugenics is a dangerous science for society to consider for purpose outside of incest, much more trouble then it is worth.

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