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Is a prohibition of sex between family an example of eugenics?

distact for incest an example of eugenics?


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I don't see how eugenics has anything to do with the taboo. Incest, in various forms, has been taboo for thousands of years. Certainly the science of eugenics wasn't on the table. I agree with Korimyr that it had, in the historical past, more to do with the stability of family. Of course, now we know that inbreeding is very harmful so there's a further scientific reason not to engage in incestuous behavior. Even in the present day, I don't think eugenics correctly describes the reason that incest is taboo.

That's the thing. There's no higher risk of having birth defects in children conceived between first cousins than there is in a woman having her first child after the age of forty. The risk of birth defects simply does not justify the primal disgust that the violation of the incest taboo entails.

I don't think incest is limited to sex between first cousins - so studies of risks of birth defects shouldn't be limited to 1st cousins. I'd also argue that some of the taboo goes beyond the disgust against 1st cousin sex to brother/sister sexual relations but further towards (speaking personally) any horror towards parent / child relations.

Maybe I'm conservative (small "c") about it or anally retentive but I just find the subject totally distasteful and I'd be against incest becoming acceptable behaviour.
 
I don't think incest is limited to sex between first cousins - so studies of risks of birth defects shouldn't be limited to 1st cousins. I'd also argue that some of the taboo goes beyond the disgust against 1st cousin sex to brother/sister sexual relations but further towards (speaking personally) any horror towards parent / child relations.

Maybe I'm conservative (small "c") about it or anally retentive but I just find the subject totally distasteful and I'd be against incest becoming acceptable behaviour.

I absolutely agree with you. I just don't believe that the prohibition against incest should be based on genetic similarity when the far greater problem lies in relationships between persons of close affinity.
 
Tribes, however are rarely isolated from one another and 'trade' would be spouses and arrange marriages. Also a tribe could not survive genetically with rampant incest in isolation. What is the rate of birth defect from incestuous reproduction? Would the offspring even survive?

Tribes could be very isolationist in nature; that's sort of the whole point of a tribal society.
The risk of birth defects from an incestuous union is not terribly high; less, as has been mentioned, than for a woman over 40 giving birth via a non-incestuous union.

The royal families of Europe, throughout the classical and medieval eras and well into the renaissance era, were almost exclusively comprised of products of incest. In an effort to keep rulership of the entire Western World in the hands of the same few families, first cousins, uncles and nieces, and aunts and nephews were betrothed and married to one another with regularity. Such marriages were the norm for the time, rather than the exception to the rule.
Did they have a lot of birth defects, even after a dozen generations of such inbreeding?
Well, they weren't a terribly healthy bunch in general, not by today's standards... but few people were, at the time. There was no modern medicine; most of them- like all people of their time- died of illnesses that would be preventable or easily curable today.
The only possibly-incest-related effect that I can think of was a high incidence of hemophilia among the Royal Families; it was so common, in fact, that it was known at the time as "Kings' Disease".
I know there's a genetic component to hemophilia; I'm not sure if incest causes it to occur in a family at higher rates.

You can also look at the Ashkenazi Jews, who until this century didn't interbreed (at least not by choice) with gentiles, to the point that 40% of today's Ashkenazi Jews have recently been traced back to just four common female ancestors.
Yes, they do have a higher rate of certain genetic disorders; also a higher rate of certain cancer-causing genes. Nothing earth-shattering, though. They also have a (slightly) higher median IQ than any other ethnic group on earth, so maybe thousands of years of reproductive isolationism made them smarter. Who knows? :shrug:
Maybe they, as a culture, simply evolved or adapted to be smarter, because of their particular historical experiences.
It would be interesting if someone would do a similar study on the Hmong, who have been even more genetically isolated than the Jews, until even more recently. In fact, over 90% of the Hmong in the US derive from ten major clans, or families, and share the same surnames.
However, within the Hmong culture, there are strict cultural taboos/ prohibitions against marrying within one's clan.
That doesn't mean one can't marry somebody just one generation removed from one's own clan, however, and I'm sure they frequently do.
 
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I absolutely agree with you. I just don't believe that the prohibition against incest should be based on genetic similarity when the far greater problem lies in relationships between persons of close affinity.

Thanks.

I'm also well aware of a potential self identified charge of hypocrisy when I read 1069 speaking of "historical/anthropological perspective, or even a Biblical perspectives" - if you believe in the bible, we're all related through from two original ancestors (Adam and Eve) and if you go with evolution, we may all be related through a very small subset of ancestors.

Biblically - we're all involved in some form of incest anyway. Genetically, we may not all have the exact same two original ancestors but there's a very high chance of a common set of ancestors (no way of knowing how many or few there were)

My head's spinning.
 
I know there's a genetic component to hemophilia; I'm not sure if incest causes it to occur in a family at higher rates.

incest causes any genetic traits, whether dominant or recessive, to occur at a much higher frequency, it could be red hair, haemophilia or buck teeth, but incest guarantees that negative (and positive) genetic traits will be more common.
 
Thanks.

I'm also well aware of a potential self identified charge of hypocrisy when I read 1069 speaking of "historical/anthropological perspective, or even a Biblical perspectives" - if you believe in the bible, we're all related through from two original ancestors (Adam and Eve) and if you go with evolution, we may all be related through a very small subset of ancestors.

Biblically - we're all involved in some form of incest anyway. Genetically, we may not all have the exact same two original ancestors but there's a very high chance of a common set of ancestors (no way of knowing how many or few there were)

My head's spinning.

Why is you head spinning?
You must have known that, in the very recent past, most people lived in small, rural, agrarian communities and rarely traveled, as travel was difficult and dangerous.
Of course such people would have jillions of "common ancestors".
Who else would they marry, if not each other?
 
Biblically - we're all involved in some form of incest anyway. Genetically, we may not all have the exact same two original ancestors but there's a very high chance of a common set of ancestors (no way of knowing how many or few there were)

I have seen it estimated that no two persons on Earth are less than 50th cousins to one another. At a certain point, you just have to draw the line and say that your degree of affinity-- or consanguinity, if you insist upon involving genetics-- is so obscure as to be irrelevant. I suppose that this would vary from family to family, but I'd say that it takes at most a handful of generations; if neither person has ever met their most recent common ancestor, I'd say their lineage is divergent enough to be acceptable barring exceptional cases.
 
And, the only reason people may not find their close relatives sexually appealing is because they're told they shouldn't. If they didn't KNOW they were close relatives, they most certainly could/would. So, it's not a biological or "unnatural" thing at all. It's a social thing.
Shhhh! You're not supposed to say that out loud. ;)

Like the fact that girls don't start being sexy only after they reach an arbitrary age set by the State, it's something that most people realize but no one is supposed to say.

If incest is not natural then I wonder what it is - supernatural? Diabolical? The belief that humans were created in God's image is about as plausible as Xmas gifts coming from Santa. I also doubt that human beings are the spawn of the devil, who between old and new testaments, can't seem to decide whether he's God's prosecuting attorney, a Miltonian romantic figure who'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven, or of course Pure Evil Personified. There's another possibility that doesn't require massive leaps of faith: Maybe humans are as much a part of nature as any other animal, and therefore anything they do is natural!
 
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-- Like the fact that girls don't start being sexy only after they reach an arbitrary age set by the State, it's something that most people realize but no one is supposed to say.

If incest is not natural then I wonder what it is --

OK, I agree that if you leave your pet dogs to it, a male dog can and will mate with his own daughter the first time she comes on heat. We're animals too but if I ever look at my young daughter as a prospective sexual partner I hope someone shoots me. We may be animals but we're also self-aware and aware of the consequences of our own actions: further, we can project and theorise upon the consequences of actions we may or may not take.

It may be a natural part of the animal kingdom but we mostly (not everyone) do not act on all our more animal instincts.
 
We may be animals but we're also self-aware and aware of the consequences of our own actions: further, we can project and theorise upon the consequences of actions we may or may not take.
Humans are not unique in this regard, although many of us like to flatter ourselves as such.
It may be a natural part of the animal kingdom but we mostly (not everyone) do not act on all our more animal instincts.
We can be very good at rationalization in the name of reason, that's for sure.
 
No.

As most people are at least very very distantly related to each other, everyone is likely family somehow (not positive on this, but I thought there was scientific studies tracing everyone's ancestry back to one area of the world?).

Although inbreeding is one potential reason, I think the major cause of incest taboos is social/cultural.

I do not know at what point the risks from producing offspring with a family member cease to be an issue (like, second cousin, third cousin, etc.).

Still, I know that however attractive I find a female relative (Yes, even first cousins...and I can't deny that such has occurred...And regarding a previous post, yes, very likely some were are under 18), I will be very unlikely (as in, not gonna happen) to pursue such if I am aware that they are related to me.

Part of my “indoctrination” as a child, methinks.
 
Humans are not unique in this regard, although many of us like to flatter ourselves as such.

I agree, however I wasn't trying to demonstrate that humans are the only animals that can demonstrate self awareness. I'm not arguing any higher innate moral nature in humanity - however if you put many other animals in the situation where an immediate offspring is in sexual heat the elder male relative will try to mate with it's own offspring. I suspect such incest does happen with humans but nobody is going to argue that every female child starts having sex with her father once she becomes capable of sexual reproduction.

We are self aware enough to realise the consequences - morally / biologically etc of our potential actions or are (as I am) repulsed by the idea.

We can be very good at rationalization in the name of reason, that's for sure.

I'd like a bit of clarification please - especially in view of the subject of the thread?
 
Where have all of the geniuses gone? Back in the royal blood days, for every dozen or so attic children, there was a Newton, Descartes, or Fourier born unto this world. The modern taboos of incest have rendered the super genius brain improbable. So in that sense it is a form of eugenics. Or De-eugenics as the case may be.
 
Where have all of the geniuses gone? Back in the royal blood days, for every dozen or so attic children, there was a Newton, Descartes, or Fourier born unto this world. The modern taboos of incest have rendered the super genius brain improbable. So in that sense it is a form of eugenics. Or De-eugenics as the case may be.

Interesting theory. ;)
There don't seem to be many great artists anymore, either.
It makes me think that in retrospect, these "Great People" really weren't all that great.
They were probably just considered ordinary during their own lifetimes.
And perhaps there may be some among us now who will be considered "Great" by future generations.
 
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I think it may be the only acceptable form of eugenics. It certainly isn't a religious reasoning which is good enough even though I've read somewhere the problems associated with inbreeding are somewhat overblown. However it is still a reasonable extension of eugenics. I think though that eugenics is a dangerous science for society to consider for purpose outside of incest, much more trouble then it is worth.
 
I think it may be the only acceptable form of eugenics. It certainly isn't a religious reasoning which is good enough even though I've read somewhere the problems associated with inbreeding are somewhat overblown. However it is still a reasonable extension of eugenics. I think though that eugenics is a dangerous science for society to consider for purpose outside of incest, much more trouble then it is worth.

But the government only goes so far as to prevent blood relatives from legally marrying; in other words, it refuses to officially sanction incestuous unions.
It does not forbid them, though.
There is no law against incest, no law against consensual adult relatives having children together, as far as I know.
 
But the government only goes so far as to prevent blood relatives from legally marrying; in other words, it refuses to officially sanction incestuous unions.
It does not forbid them, though.
There is no law against incest, no law against consensual adult relatives having children together, as far as I know.

Uhh.. I don't like this debate. The practise in society goes back a long way. IDK if society should seek law making about but continued moral social pressures seem sufficient to keep this problem in a can.

Mostly I'm going to have to argue I don't know what should be done with the issue. Eugenics, morality and lawmaking is one sticky mess. I refrained from posting on the subject because of that. I stand by my opinion thought that some degree of eugenics is acceptable.. more then that is dangerous.
 
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