View Poll Results: Which tax system is most 'fair'?

Voters
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  • Progressive Tax

    90 42.25%
  • Regressive Tax

    0 0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    104 48.83%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    5 2.35%
  • Other

    14 6.57%
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Thread: Which tax system is most 'fair'

  1. #81
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Understood, you support collective tyranny. Me and my gang are in the majority too, so I expect no resistance when we show up at your front door to collect your car.
    No, I support an economic and taxation system that maximises prosperity balanced with some levelling of economic power. I don't recognize property rights as absolute and so I don't view taxation as theft. Almost no one (really) does, and so we are lucky enough to have a majority who knows that taxation isn't the same as thugs showing up at your front door to take your belongings.

    If the majority did agree with you, it would lead to a society where only the few find any justice of any kind at all.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  2. #82
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so social security is now a tax
    Of course it is.

    that was not what the dems said when they pushed it-its a forced retirement account-not a tax
    Have you read FICA or are you just so partisan you don't care?

    used to fund stuff like armies or the FBI or the department of education
    And how presidents and congresses, Democratic and Republican alike raided it? Or are you again to partisan to look at facts? Bush HIMSELF raided it for huge amounts. Social Security is little more then a slush fund that both parties have used for all kinds of reasons. Stop being an overly partisan hack.

    and people cheat on income taxes now but if the number of people who are required to send in the tax are far less (merchants) the ability to police that is far easier
    But the problem with enforcement at the retail level is that it interferes with business. You're tacking on a huge cost to them. Just because there are fewer doesn't make it easier. Especially when businesses often have more complex ways of hiding money then individuals. This is going to come down to auditing inventory to ensure that total goods sold matches the associated taxes.

    lets cut the crap-those who want progressive taxes do so because of class envy
    How about you cut the partisan blinders?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  3. #83
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Rightwingnutjob View Post
    Gotta love endorsing theft!
    Any non-voluntary tax system where anyone pays any dollar amount greater than anyone else is taking from one person and giving services to others. This, I believe, is what you consider to be theft.

    So, the only non-voluntary tax system that is not theft is a head tax. Each and every person (of any age or status) residing in the nation must be assessed the exact same dollar amount tax. Otherwise someone is subsidizing someone else. Theft is theft, as you've chosen to define it.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  4. #84
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But a flat tax won't end it either. If you ask me, the reason why the middle class are getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer is for a multitude of reasons.

    One, if you ask me, is how necessary the use of living off of a debt is in this nation. We require debt to get a college education or professional training and we require debt to get shelter. On one hand, the flow of credit in the U.S. allows those who are poor a way to lift themselves out of their poverty but, on the other hand, free market forces causes the prices to rise higher because of that credit. Therefore, nothing is really gained. Except the amount interest people have to pay back to their creditors.

    What is the ultimate solution to this? I don't know, and even if I did I doubt it would be something the majority of Americans would attempt to implement anyways.

    Another reason is the sheer number of tax exemptions available to people. While conservative pundits like to blame Democrats for giving the poor for all these exemptions, Republicans are also to blame for giving exemptions to their poor supporters, most poor social conservatives who get tax breaks for children.

    But why should people with children get more tax exemptions when they use more tax-provided government services, such as public education for their children? Maybe we should increase taxes on couples with children since they consume more government services than singles without children.

    But that would be against the "family values" of social conservatives who love kids so much they despise birth control, and would call any Republican who supported it a RINO.

    So the reason why the middle class is suffering and the reason why the poor stay poor can't be reduced to the system of taxes we use. There are many reasons, many more than I know of to list.
    I don't disagree with a lot of what you say.

    I think most of it boils down to behavior, we aren't teaching people how to fish but merely giving them the fish.
    Not to get all Biblical on you or anything.

    There needs to be some serious behavior modification in order for tax changes to succeed, which is largely why any proactive tax system fails.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #85
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    We need people to be conscious of their consumption and where tax money is going. Consumption taxes would do just that. If you want to live a life of frivolity and excess, then do so. What we currently have is 50% of the working population not caring how tax dollars are being spent, because they have no personal stake in it.
    Well, we may have 50% of the working population not caring how tax dollars are being spent, but that may not necessarily be because they have no personal stake in it. Even if they had a personal stake in it does not mean they would care. Neither does it mean that they would no longer be ignorant on the subject.

    Don't forget how much of the media requires a revenue stream in order to operate. We could have a news organization try to educate the people on all the ways our tax monies are being spent. However, such an endeavor would not be profitable as there is not enough demand for it compared to the demand for political punditry. Therefore, even if people were interested in educating themselves on the details of how tax funds are spent, there is no way to pay for an operation to provide such a service.

    And a government funded operation to educate the people in such way is out of the question, as we all know what kind of calls for "state media" that would lead to. And the sad thing about it is that such accusations would probably be right, for both Democrats and Republicans.

    Another thing to consider is that the pro-business interests of the Republican Party want consumption. Their businesses rely on consumer spending. They want people to spend as much money on their goods and services as they can get. Their profit margins depend on it.

    That's why pro-business Republicans try to keep the price of oil down rather than make moves to increase oil dependence. It's also why the pro-business Republicans are against public transportation systems and instead want people to buy cars and gas. Most of the Republican politicians want consumption to be maintained, not lowered. Otherwise they would offer public solutions that increase the efficiency of use of our fuels.

  6. #86
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Well in terms of social cohesion.. lets look at the top 10 countries people report to be the most happy. If you look closely you will see countries with much higher degree of progressive taxation.. you will note currently the US is much lower on the chart placing 17th with very few social programs for the people.
    So you're arguing that people can be taxed into happiness?

  7. #87
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Only the first one. A sales tax is too hard to realistically produce in our economy.
    interesting. how do the states survive?

  8. #88
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    interesting. how do the states survive?
    Lots of federal governmen transfers
    Happy Hanukkah Cheerfull Kwanzaa
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  9. #89
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't disagree with a lot of what you say.

    I think most of it boils down to behavior, we aren't teaching people how to fish but merely giving them the fish.
    Not to get all Biblical on you or anything.

    There needs to be some serious behavior modification in order for tax changes to succeed, which is largely why any proactive tax system fails.
    The "Give a man a fish, feed him for a lifetime; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" metaphor is often used to criticized social programs. However, we never talk about he metaphor for how people "get taught to fish."

    Currently, I'd have to go to the fisherman and ask him to teach me. But he doesn't want to, because every minute he would spend teaching me is one minute he's not catching fish, which lowers the number of fish he catches.

    So he makes a deal with me - every day he spends teaching me to catch fish, is one fish I have to pay him back later. I have to give him a minimum number of fish every month, and for every 10 fish I owe at the end of a month I have to give him an additional fish for interest.

    So he teaches me how to fish and I learn all the basics but none of this actually gets me any fish. This means the number of fish I owe keeps increasing higher and higher by the time I'm capable enough to fish.

    So I fish and try to give my teacher the number of fish he requires me. Not only that, but I have to trade fish for housing too just so I have shelter. I also have to give fish for paying off my boat, my net, my sail, and everything else I need that I bought with the promise of future fish.

    So eventually the number of fish I owe to my teachers, my landlord, and is simply beyond my ability to catch in my lifetime. So what do I do?

    Well, I find younger people who want to learn how to fish and teach them with the promise that they'll give me fishes with interest in the future. So I teach a number of them how to fish and wait for them to catch fish to pay me back. I try to do this enough times so I can pay back all my own debts while getting others indebted to me.

    Only the number of fishermen we have trying to pay off the fish they owe has caused them to overfish the waters. Because of that, the number of fish demanded can't keep up with the number of fish available. But all the people who are owed don't care - they want their fishes.

    So the fishes get overfished and there's no more fish to spawn in great numbers. There are too few fishes for all the fishermen out there.

    Which means that instead of giving out fishes, those fisherman see if the people they owe fishes to want anything else instead. Come to find out, they need wood, which can be gotten from the nearby forests.

    Only, those fishermen don't know how to cut down that much wood, which means they need to find a logger to teach them...

    And so on and so on it goes.

  10. #90
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so tell me-how do the evil rich manage to make 22% of the income and pay almost 40% of the income tax with all those loopholes and off shore foundations
    Please show me where they only make 22% of the income?

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