View Poll Results: Which tax system is most 'fair'?

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  • Progressive Tax

    90 42.25%
  • Regressive Tax

    0 0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    104 48.83%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    5 2.35%
  • Other

    14 6.57%
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Thread: Which tax system is most 'fair'

  1. #71
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the two are often mutually exclusive. and, just to be sure, you believe that our rights are given to us by our government, not the other way 'round?
    Property rights are given by society through the democratically elected representative government. Other rights are simply recognized by the government.

    For a clear example of property rights invented by society and granted through the government: Intellectual Property Rights.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  2. #72
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you have any evidence that suggests that the states who use sales taxes have to maintain a significantly larger IRS in order to collect it than those who tack on additional income taxes?

    switching to a consumption tax at the retail level would reduce the number of collection points, and make noncompliance more difficult. so i'm kind of left scratching my head at your claim here.
    it apparently was a made up claim in an attempt to attack a system that doesn't appeal to class warfare



  3. #73
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Well, luckily, you're not the majority.
    Understood, you support collective tyranny. Me and my gang are in the majority too, so I expect no resistance when we show up at your front door to collect your car.

  4. #74
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm not saying that is my view on things but I think it begs the question because many people state that, the middle class is getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer.

    If that is true, why hasn't the progressive tax system ended that?
    I think the answer lies in changing the behavior of those that are middle class and poor.
    Twisting and turning numbers only does so much.
    But a flat tax won't end it either. If you ask me, the reason why the middle class are getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer is for a multitude of reasons.

    One, if you ask me, is how necessary the use of living off of a debt is in this nation. We require debt to get a college education or professional training and we require debt to get shelter. On one hand, the flow of credit in the U.S. allows those who are poor a way to lift themselves out of their poverty but, on the other hand, free market forces causes the prices to rise higher because of that credit. Therefore, nothing is really gained. Except the amount interest people have to pay back to their creditors.

    What is the ultimate solution to this? I don't know, and even if I did I doubt it would be something the majority of Americans would attempt to implement anyways.

    Another reason is the sheer number of tax exemptions available to people. While conservative pundits like to blame Democrats for giving the poor for all these exemptions, Republicans are also to blame for giving exemptions to their poor supporters, most poor social conservatives who get tax breaks for children.

    But why should people with children get more tax exemptions when they use more tax-provided government services, such as public education for their children? Maybe we should increase taxes on couples with children since they consume more government services than singles without children.

    But that would be against the "family values" of social conservatives who love kids so much they despise birth control, and would call any Republican who supported it a RINO.

    So the reason why the middle class is suffering and the reason why the poor stay poor can't be reduced to the system of taxes we use. There are many reasons, many more than I know of to list.

  5. #75
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    uh just about every person charged with collecting federal taxes now on consumption does it at the state level
    And many of them cheat right now with relatively low rates. When you jack up the sale tax to the often cited range of 15% to 23% sales will drop. To incentivize people to buy, they will switch to a cash basis and not collect the tax.

    try again-my wife ran a business and she collected sales taxes and we didn't have an auditor in our office. our cash register rang up the taxes which were remitted to the state monthly or weekly, I cannot recall at this point
    There is where you failed. You were not deliberately trying to cheat. Tax avoidance sales will entirely bypass the register. Citing the cash register is a sign you don't get how they are going to cheat. Chinatowns across the US are notorious for cash basis under the table transactions. Often the IRS will first watch the suspected business, make estimates on sales per entry and then confront them before sending in auditors. Auditors are expensive. Easier to intimidate them into admitting and paying. A full sales tax would incentivize every firm to act like a Chinatown firm. To enforce compliance, it's going to take a suped-up IRS.

    I sure like the idea of congress not being able to pander to the envious and the unproductive
    So those who pay taxes to fund Medicare and Social Security are unproductive?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  6. #76
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    This is of course total BS. Your numbers obviously use income tax data which does not account for money hidden in various foundations that are only available to the very wealthy and of course off-shore accounts.
    Also, note that working stiff is pay payroll taxes where the rich are paying none.

    Oh yeah, there is only a 15% tax on capital gains.
    so tell me-how do the evil rich manage to make 22% of the income and pay almost 40% of the income tax with all those loopholes and off shore foundations

    only clowns think most of those targeted for the tax hikes have off shore foundations.



  7. #77
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    the two are often mutually exclusive.
    Luckily, they are not entirely so, and society determines what the best balance between the two is.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  8. #78
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    And many of them cheat right now with relatively low rates. When you jack up the sale tax to the often cited range of 15% to 23% sales will drop. To incentivize people to buy, they will switch to a cash basis and not collect the tax.



    There is where you failed. You were not deliberately trying to cheat. Tax avoidance sales will entirely bypass the register. Citing the cash register is a sign you don't get how they are going to cheat. Chinatowns across the US are notorious for cash basis under the table transactions. Often the IRS will first watch the suspected business, make estimates on sales per entry and then confront them before sending in auditors. Auditors are expensive. Easier to intimidate them into admitting and paying. A full sales tax would incentivize every firm to act like a Chinatown firm. To enforce compliance, it's going to take a suped-up IRS.



    So those who pay taxes to fund Medicare and Social Security are unproductive?
    so social security is now a tax-that was not what the dems said when they pushed it-its a forced retirement account-not a tax used to fund stuff like armies or the FBI or the department of education

    and people cheat on income taxes now but if the number of people who are required to send in the tax are far less (merchants) the ability to police that is far easier

    lets cut the crap-those who want progressive taxes do so because of class envy



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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    additional necessary redistribution of wealth.
    Gotta love endorsing theft!

  10. #80
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you have any evidence that suggests that the states who use sales taxes have to maintain a significantly larger IRS in order to collect it than those who tack on additional income taxes?
    First, the IRS is federal. Second, state tax collection agencies are generally lazy people. Third, sales tax compared to income is generally relatively minor and most of the cheating happens with smaller firms where its not cost effective to constantly audit them. Usually when they get hit is when the individual owning doesn't report income from the company but manages to have large amounts of unaccountable assets.

    switching to a consumption tax at the retail level would reduce the number of collection points, and make noncompliance more difficult. so i'm kind of left scratching my head at your claim here.
    Sure it would reduce the collection points, but that doesn't make it easier to force compliance. Raising sales taxes in some places from literally zero to 23% will drastically reduce sales. There's no sane question about that. And companies will offer under the table cash sales to make it more inviting to customers to buy. And I highly suspect that there will be two sets of books going on. Any time you raise taxes on business, business finds a way to avoid them. Corporations spends billions right now on tax avoidance. Start pushing every firm into high sales tax remittance, and they will push back.

    The problem with a sales tax is that is relies on people being honest. That ain't going to happen.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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