View Poll Results: Which tax system is most 'fair'?

Voters
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  • Progressive Tax

    90 42.25%
  • Regressive Tax

    0 0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    104 48.83%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    5 2.35%
  • Other

    14 6.57%
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Thread: Which tax system is most 'fair'

  1. #261
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Of course, then there is Paris Hilton...
    why do libs have such a "hard on" for Paris Hilton? is it jealousy? I never hear you all whine about say the Kennedy kids. True, some like Tim Shriver are great people who (because he inherited a ton of money) can take a job like being head of special olympics rather than working on wall street etc. But most are slugs, yet you all whine about a girl who actually has a trade rather than sitting around knocking up baby sitters and snorting cocaine



  2. #262
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    why do libs have such a "hard on" for Paris Hilton? is it jealousy? I never hear you all whine about say the Kennedy kids. True, some like Tim Shriver are great people who (because he inherited a ton of money) can take a job like being head of special olympics rather than working on wall street etc. But most are slugs, yet you all whine about a girl who actually has a trade rather than sitting around knocking up baby sitters and snorting cocaine
    It was a joke. Relax!
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #263
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It was a joke. Relax!
    It might be-sort of like the guy claiming he is a conservative yet he wants a massive death confiscation tax



  4. #264
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I tried to make it obvious to the feelers what I was saying-America as a NATION WORKED WELL but maybe not for the unlucky or the untalented.
    Considering the number of revolutionaries there have been in the U.S. for a number of reasons based on a number of issues, no it hasn't. After all, the labor movement came to full swing during the time period you talked about. Why? Because of the excessive abuses of owners on their employees. The number of strikes during this period is what caused the U.S. government to legitimize unions in this country. And then there's the exposes of yellow journalists such as Upton Sinclair who exposed the underhanded and unethical practices of many businesses in order to institute reforms. So the nation WORKED BETTER with social reforms paid for by tax dollars, such as public education, recognition of unions, and federal regulatory agencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Edify me why I have a duty to pay for someone else's existence when I get nothing in return? Mind you I support-both philosophically and with my donations, charity but that is different than supporting by force-income redistribution.
    Because those people can produce more with what taxpayer money gives them than what they would produce without that taxpayer money. By spending tax dollars to give eyeglasses to those who children who have eye problems or by giving wheelchairs or prosthetics to the disabled, they can lead a MORE PRODUCTIVE life than if they were denied those things. After all, why have someone who is disabled live on charity and take that money away from donors when the government can use tax revenues to help them get jobs that they will then pay a portion to taxes?

    Likewise with public education. Why have kids doing menial manual labor that will not give them any marketable skills when by paying tax dollars for public education they can be taught to be productive and get a job and then pay for their own needs?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Since you leftwingers believe in the common good as the paramount interest (at least when it comes to looting private property) one can make a good faith argument that not supporting those who cannot make it is best for society or at least better than spending billions on the unproductive. Darwin's theorem at its brutal finest
    No, it isn't, because the OUTPUT of those people's productivity is GREATER than the INPUT they receive from tax-provided services. This is why our tax dollars has produced a modern sustainable society whereas other governments incapable of taking in government revenue, such as Latin American countries and African countries, are impoverished throughout.

  5. #265
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    Considering the number of revolutionaries there have been in the U.S. for a number of reasons based on a number of issues, no it hasn't. After all, the labor movement came to full swing during the time period you talked about. Why? Because of the excessive abuses of owners on their employees. The number of strikes during this period is what caused the U.S. government to legitimize unions in this country. And then there's the exposes of yellow journalists such as Upton Sinclair who exposed the underhanded and unethical practices of many businesses in order to institute reforms. So the nation WORKED BETTER with social reforms paid for by tax dollars, such as public education, recognition of unions, and federal regulatory agencies.



    Because those people can produce more with what taxpayer money gives them than what they would produce without that taxpayer money. By spending tax dollars to give eyeglasses to those who children who have eye problems or by giving wheelchairs or prosthetics to the disabled, they can lead a MORE PRODUCTIVE life than if they were denied those things. After all, why have someone who is disabled live on charity and take that money away from donors when the government can use tax revenues to help them get jobs that they will then pay a portion to taxes?

    Likewise with public education. Why have kids doing menial manual labor that will not give them any marketable skills when by paying tax dollars for public education they can be taught to be productive and get a job and then pay for their own needs?



    No, it isn't, because the OUTPUT of those people's productivity is GREATER than the INPUT they receive from tax-provided services. This is why our tax dollars has produced a modern sustainable society whereas other governments incapable of taking in government revenue, such as Latin American countries and African countries, are impoverished throughout.
    MOre BS-

    and please address my main point

    if people who have a majority of the votes do not feel any pain when the government raises taxes and spends irresponsibly, what incentive do those voters have to stop a government from growing and growing and growing when dem politicians promise them all sorts of handouts that others have to pay for.

    we don't need that sort of power in the hands of congress and a flat tax or a sales tax still means the rich pay far more than they use

    (BTW if you claim the rich pay less than they use, you have to find a group that pays far more than they use to balance it out--you cannot and its a fact that the top 5% of tax payers basically are paying far more than they use-the next 5-10% are basically breaking even and everyone below that uses more than they pay)

    later, I have 8 hours of depositions tomorrow



  6. #266
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    MOre BS-

    and please address my main point

    if people who have a majority of the votes do not feel any pain when the government raises taxes and spends irresponsibly, what incentive do those voters have to stop a government from growing and growing and growing when dem politicians promise them all sorts of handouts that others have to pay for.

    we don't need that sort of power in the hands of congress and a flat tax or a sales tax still means the rich pay far more than they use

    (BTW if you claim the rich pay less than they use, you have to find a group that pays far more than they use to balance it out--you cannot and its a fact that the top 5% of tax payers basically are paying far more than they use-the next 5-10% are basically breaking even and everyone below that uses more than they pay)

    later, I have 8 hours of depositions tomorrow
    I will address your main point as soon as you address my main point that the productivity of people who receive government services, such as children going to public school and the disabled who receive prosthetics and other assistance contribute more to society than they take from tax dollars.

  7. #267
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I will address your main point as soon as you address my main point that the productivity of people who receive government services, such as children going to public school and the disabled who receive prosthetics and other assistance contribute more to society than they take from tax dollars.
    Care to show me where the federal government has the delegated authority in the Constitution to do those things?

  8. #268
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Patriot View Post
    Care to show me where the federal government has the delegated authority in the Constitution to do those things?
    How about Article I Section 8.
    The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

  9. #269
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    How about Article I Section 8.
    I give you James Madison and Thomas Jefferson about the use of general welfare in Article I Section VIII Clause I.

    "With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

    "[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any." - James Madison, Federalist 14

    "The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." - James Madison, Federalist 45

    "If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792

    “The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed" - Thomas Jefferson, 1791

    "Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798
    I follow up with the Tenth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States.

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    Since those objects that samsmart pointed out are not enumerated in Article I Section VIII that means that Congress cannot pass laws or provide those things. Also, by the very definition of general welfare means that everyone has to have the benefit. Since those benefits are solely for certain classes of people then it is not general welfare, but special welfare to certain groups of people. General is defined in Webster's 1828 Dictionary as, "Public; common; relating to or comprehending the whole community; as the general interest or safety of a nation." Welfare is defined from the same source as, "Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity, or the ordinary blessings of society and civil government; applied to states." Thus, General Welfare literally means the enjoyment of peace and prosperity for the whole of the people.
    Last edited by The_Patriot; 07-14-10 at 02:22 AM.

  10. #270
    Professor

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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    MOre BS-

    and please address my main point

    if people who have a majority of the votes do not feel any pain when the government raises taxes and spends irresponsibly, what incentive do those voters have to stop a government from growing and growing and growing when dem politicians promise them all sorts of handouts that others have to pay for.

    we don't need that sort of power in the hands of congress and a flat tax or a sales tax still means the rich pay far more than they use

    later, I have 8 hours of depositions tomorrow
    Turtledude,

    Obviously progressive taxes have a redistributional effect. However, you must acknowlege everything the government does has distributive consequences.

    Have fun working!

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