View Poll Results: Which tax system is most 'fair'?

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  • Progressive Tax

    90 42.25%
  • Regressive Tax

    0 0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    104 48.83%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    5 2.35%
  • Other

    14 6.57%
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Thread: Which tax system is most 'fair'

  1. #101
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think to totally summarize my point here.

    We've had some sort of progressive taxation for the better part of 100 years and the amount of relative poverty is more or less the same (over the past 40 years at least).
    We've increased regulations from 1 book of approximately 1,000 pages to multiple volumes compromising approximately 70,000 pages.

    Is there a point when you ask yourself, when is it enough? What have we really accomplished?
    The more progressive a tax system, the more stability it provides to the economy during changes income (GDP).

  2. #102
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    The more progressive a tax system, the more stability it provides to the economy during changes income (GDP).
    Isn't the intent to help reduce or end poverty though?
    When is there a point where it is too progressive?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  3. #103
    onomatopoeic
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post

    So the rich are clearly paying far far more than they use to make up for all those who don't pay near as much as they use.
    This is a Continuing and Raging LIE by Turtle Due.
    Not an opinion.. a Grotesque LIE.
    Most recently he's been shown so here
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1058836356

    Reminding him of:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    You may THINK it's unfair because of Your political stance, which has NO basis in the econonic history of this country... only in what you naively perceive as 'fair'.
    So easy on the "Idiotic" unless you have a Mirror handy.

    We have a Progressive income tax now, which in your mind is already 'unfair'.
    but in FACT, it's clearly not Progressive Enough to prevent greater and greater income disparity and so-called 'working poor.

    So that IN FACT, BOTH parties have agreed several times to stimulous checks (ie 600/1200) which benefit the little guy (and effectivley Lower His tax rate far more significantly than bigger earners) and who HAS to spend every penny he makes ALREADY and still has nothing left.
    He can't buy enough cars, computers, etc, to support the Stock prices of the rich. So ALL then do agree where relief is more needed.
    The Closet 'Proof of the Pudding'.

    A Flat Rate Income tax would obviously cause even greater disparity and Raise the taxes of at least the bottom 2/3s (probably 4/5's/80%) of the population now to lower the taxes on the richer.
    Of course, Only AN "IDIOT" would propose it, and no one really has seriously tried.

    And as to "Class Warfare", I already addressed this, the most myopic of your many Goofy remarks in post #176.
    Top US Marginal Income Tax Rates, 1913--2003 (TruthAndPolitics.org)

    Historical rates (married couples, filing jointly)
    Table

    Year/ Top Rate%/ Over

    1913 --- 7% 500,000
    1914 --- 7% 500,000
    1915 --- 7% 500,000
    1916 --- 15% 2,000,000
    1917 --- 67% 2,000,000
    1918 --- 77% 1,000,000
    1919 --- 73% 1,000,000
    1920 --- 73% 1,000,000
    1921 --- 73% 1,000,000
    1922 --- 58% 200,000
    1923 --- 43.5% 200,000
    1924 --- 46% 500,000
    1925 --- 25% 100,000
    1926 --- 25% 100,000
    1927 --- 25% 100,000
    1928 --- 25% 100,000
    1929 --- 24% 100,000
    1930 --- 25% 100,000
    1931 --- 25% 100,000
    1932 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1933 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1934 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1935 --- 63% 1,000,000
    1936 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1937 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1938 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1939 --- 79% 5,000,000
    1940 --- 81% 5,000,000
    1941 --- 81% 5,000,000
    1942 --- 88% 200,000
    1943 --- 88% 200,000
    1944--- 94 200,000
    1945 --- 94% 200,000
    1946 --- 86% 200,000
    1947 --- 86% 200,000
    1948 --- 82.% 400,000
    1949 --- 82% 400,000
    1950 --- 84.36% 400,000
    1951 --- 91% 400,000
    1952 --- 92% 400,000
    1953 --- 92% 400,000
    1954 --- 91% 400,000
    1955 --- 91% 400,000
    1956 --- 91% 400,000
    1957 --- 91% 400,000
    1958 --- 91% 400,000
    1959 --- 91% 400,000
    1960 --- 91% 400,000
    1961 --- 91% 400,000
    1962 --- 91% 400,000
    1963 --- 91% 400,000
    1964 --- 77% 400,000
    1965 --- 70% 200,000
    1966 --- 70% 200,000
    1967 --- 70% 200,000
    1968 --- 75.25% 200,000
    1969 --- 77% 200,000
    1970 --- 71.75% 200,000
    1971 --- 70% 60% 200,000
    1972 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1973 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1974 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1975 ----70% 50 200,000
    1976 --- 70% 50 200,000
    1977 --- 70% 50 203,200
    1978 --- 70% 50 203,200
    1979 --- 70% 50 215,400
    1980 --- 70% 50 215,400
    1981 --- 69% 50 215,400
    1982 --- 50% 85,600
    1983 --- 50% 109,400
    1984 --- 50% 162,400
    1985 --- 50 % 169,020
    1986 --- 50 % 175,250

    1987 --- 38.5% 90,000
    1988 --- 28% <8> 29,750 <8>
    1989 --- 28% <8> 30,950 <8>
    1990 --- 28% <8> 32,450 <8>
    1991 --- 31% 82,150
    1992 --- 31% 86,500
    1993 --- 39.6% 89,150
    1994 --- 39.6% 250,000
    1995 --- 39.6% 256,500
    1996 --- 39.6% 263,750
    1997 --- 39.6% 271,050
    1998 --- 39.6% 278,450
    1999 --- 39.6% 283,150
    2000 --- 39.6% 288,350
    2001 --- 39.1% 297,350
    2002 --- 38.6% 307,050
    2003 --- 35% 311,950
    AND........ just under Bush II, Capital Gains and Dividend Taxes were near HALVED from 28% to 15% (on which the truly wealthy live), and the estate tax all but eliminated.
    So the rich pay fare LESS than the used to.
    Last edited by mbig; 07-11-10 at 04:55 AM.
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  4. #104
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think to totally summarize my point here.

    We've had some sort of progressive taxation for the better part of 100 years and the amount of relative poverty is more or less the same (over the past 40 years at least).
    We've increased regulations from 1 book of approximately 1,000 pages to multiple volumes compromising approximately 70,000 pages.

    Is there a point when you ask yourself, when is it enough? What have we really accomplished?
    Maybe we can draw a few conclusions from that.

    One could be that not enough is being done to help the poor.

    The other is that maybe the methods we are using to help the poor are not working.

    The other, which is the most likely IMO, is that measures are put into place to make it appear that the goal is to reduce poverty but they are mostly hot air. The reason being that it gets votes.

  5. #105
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Taxation is going to inherently unfair and arbitrary no matter how it done. Somebody always pays more and somebody always pays less. The best that one can do is create a system that gets the needed revenues while causing the minimum amount of pain. The graduated income tax has been around for quite a while and gets the job done. Nobody has to suffer much from paying their taxes, and it generates close to enough revenue to pay for the programs we need.

  6. #106
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Maybe we can draw a few conclusions from that.

    One could be that not enough is being done to help the poor.

    The other is that maybe the methods we are using to help the poor are not working.
    Just for future clarification, in this argument my use of "poor" is relative poverty.
    Well, what the government defines as poor.

    Realistically, I don't consider, hardly, anyone in the states as poor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    The other, which is the most likely IMO, is that measures are put into place to make it appear that the goal is to reduce poverty but they are mostly hot air. The reason being that it gets votes.
    I do agree with this.
    I think we have come to the finality of alleviating poverty in the sense of feeding and clothing people.
    There is really nothing left to be done in this sense.
    Poor people here have a reasonable ease of access to food, medical care, housing, you name it.

    What we should be doing, is figuring out how these people can make the life changes necessary to no longer be poor.
    It requires a great amount of personal effort, in my opinion.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  7. #107
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Isn't the intent to help reduce or end poverty though?
    When is there a point where it is too progressive?
    I dunno, I am sure it would have to do with income elasticities and peoples incentives to make more money. I agree, a redistribution effect can also be a goal and would be partly the side effect of a progressive scheme, however I think this is justified if we envoke rawls veil of ignorance and difference principle. However, my main point was a progressive scheme also provides stability as an accoplishment.
    Last edited by drz-400; 07-11-10 at 05:43 AM.

  8. #108
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I dunno, I am sure it would have to do with income elasticities and peoples incentives to make more money. I agree, a redistribution effect can also be a goal and would be partly the side effect of a progressive scheme, however I think this is justified if we envoke rawls veil of ignorance and difference principle. However, my main point was a progressive scheme also provides stability as an accoplishment.
    I understand your main point.

    I guess what I am getting at is that, if I a libertarian were to accept progressive taxation, would proponents of the system also agree that there is a limit to it's problem solving ability?
    Can anyone really justify a tax rate as high as 50%,60%,70%+.
    To me that seems criminal, irrational and unreasonable.

    I know the thread is about the most fair tax system but we really must delve deeper into the subject than giving a check mark of fair or not fair.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  9. #109
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I understand your main point.

    I guess what I am getting at is that, if I a libertarian were to accept progressive taxation, would proponents of the system also agree that there is a limit to it's problem solving ability?
    Can anyone really justify a tax rate as high as 50%,60%,70%+.
    To me that seems criminal, irrational and unreasonable.

    I know the thread is about the most fair tax system but we really must delve deeper into the subject than giving a check mark of fair or not fair.
    Libertarians hold private property as a fundamental right, so I doubt stability or the difference principle would be acceptable reasons.

    I would say that taxation in general is opposed to libertarianism, however since most are minarchists they realize some is necessary. Most I have seen support a consumption tax rather than an income tax, but I think the main thing is that it is used for a minimal state. The form of taxation probobly does not matter that much as long as it is minimal for libertarians, at least that is what I would think.

  10. #110
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    This is a Continuing and Raging LIE by Turtle Due.
    Not an opinion.. a Grotesque LIE.
    Most recently he's been shown so here
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/genera...post1058836356

    Reminding him of:

    AND........ just under Bush II, Capital Gains and Dividend Taxes were near HALVED from 28% to 15% (on which the truly wealthy live), and the estate tax all but eliminated.
    So the rich pay fare LESS than the used to.
    Wrong-the effective rate will be higher next year than anytime in history due to where the bracket hits and for the first 100+ years, there was no taxes on income,

    I wasn't lying it is you who are wrong and obviously are another person who has demonstrated rather virulent class envy

    that is the second time you posted to that thread where you really did not much more than cheer on another class warfare advocate's opinion.

    sorry but that is lame



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