View Poll Results: Which tax system is most 'fair'?

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  • Progressive Tax

    90 42.25%
  • Regressive Tax

    0 0%
  • Flat Percentage Tax Rate

    104 48.83%
  • Flat Dollar Tax

    5 2.35%
  • Other

    14 6.57%
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Thread: Which tax system is most 'fair'

  1. #91
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I don't disagree with a lot of what you say.

    I think most of it boils down to behavior, we aren't teaching people how to fish but merely giving them the fish.
    Not to get all Biblical on you or anything.

    There needs to be some serious behavior modification in order for tax changes to succeed, which is largely why any proactive tax system fails.
    I know I already replied to this post, but I want to make a reply concerning a different point.

    I don't disagree with you in that we need some serious behavior modifications in this country. However, I think that the government could be used to make such necessary behavior modifications.

    One is shelter for the poor. I've stated this several times in other threads. I am critical for the government having provided government-backed loans to the poor for houses they can't afford that were built for the middle class. That's just stupid.

    Instead, I think the government should use the authority of law to mandate that housing developers cannot ignore the housing needs of the poor.

    My position is this. Most housing developers focus on the people who are middle class or wealthier when they build houses. However there is a demand for shelter for people who earn minimum wage. But land is a commodity, so housing developers build housing only for the middle class or wealthier so they can get a better long term profit.

    If I had my way, I would write a law requiring housing developers to build a certain percentage of low-income housing designed and built to be affordable to people earning a minimum wage. These could be very small, efficient multi-story homes. By forcing housing developers to dedicate to building these types of homes, they will use their ingenuity to create such homes.

    This way, the poor can actually get housing they can afford and the government isn't making risky mortgages, and housing developers will earn a profit.

    The only thing that inhibits this is housing developers' desire to earn even more of a profit to cater to the demands of the middle class. But in doing so, they ignore the needs of the poor.

    So there's a lot of ways to look at the scenario.

  2. #92
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Progressive.

    If faced with either a rise or fall in income, I think the benefit should go to the person who is least well off.

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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    If we divided the income of the US into thirds, we find that the top ten percent of the population gets a third, the next thirty percent gets another third, and the bottom sixty percent get the last third. If we divide the wealth of the US into thirds, we find that the top one percent own a third, the next nine percent own another third, and the bottom ninety percent claim the rest. (Actually, these percentages, true a decade ago, are now out of date. The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%.)
    The L-Curve: A Graph of the US Income Distribution

  4. #94
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I know I already replied to this post, but I want to make a reply concerning a different point.

    I don't disagree with you in that we need some serious behavior modifications in this country. However, I think that the government could be used to make such necessary behavior modifications.

    One is shelter for the poor. I've stated this several times in other threads. I am critical for the government having provided government-backed loans to the poor for houses they can't afford that were built for the middle class. That's just stupid.

    Instead, I think the government should use the authority of law to mandate that housing developers cannot ignore the housing needs of the poor.

    My position is this. Most housing developers focus on the people who are middle class or wealthier when they build houses. However there is a demand for shelter for people who earn minimum wage. But land is a commodity, so housing developers build housing only for the middle class or wealthier so they can get a better long term profit.

    If I had my way, I would write a law requiring housing developers to build a certain percentage of low-income housing designed and built to be affordable to people earning a minimum wage. These could be very small, efficient multi-story homes. By forcing housing developers to dedicate to building these types of homes, they will use their ingenuity to create such homes.

    This way, the poor can actually get housing they can afford and the government isn't making risky mortgages, and housing developers will earn a profit.

    The only thing that inhibits this is housing developers' desire to earn even more of a profit to cater to the demands of the middle class. But in doing so, they ignore the needs of the poor.

    So there's a lot of ways to look at the scenario.
    There are a lot of houses in my area that are incredibly affordable.
    So much so, that I almost bought one.
    They are a bit old & smaller in square feet but affordable and livable.

    Of course this really depends on the person, a lot of lower income people tend to try to mimic wealthier people.
    Buying luxury things, up to and including expensive homes (expensive for them at least).
    I'd love to see a wave of frugality in the lower income classes but that would require an education and commitment that I think is not well received by those people.

    I'm really not sure how to approach this group of people in educating them on how to live within their means.
    I've tried to mentor a younger guy I work with and he has done some good things but it's like he's begging for failure sometimes.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #95
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But a flat tax won't end it either. If you ask me, the reason why the middle class are getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer is for a multitude of reasons.
    'the poor are getting poorer' is a myth. the poor are merely getting richer slower.

    One, if you ask me, is how necessary the use of living off of a debt is in this nation. We require debt to get a college education or professional training and we require debt to get shelter.
    i could see the argument for purchasing a house (though not renting); but we certainly do not require debt to go to college or get professional training. i'm 2/3rds through a Masters degree, and i've never taken a student loan. nor do we need debt to purchase cars, or furniture, or groceries, or any of the myriad items that we foolishly use it for. I had a guy a couple of days ago tell me how great his credit card was because it only charged 13%, and that's why he used it instead of cash. I tried to explain to him that he was paying for the priviledge of using his own money; but he just sort of looked at me like i'd wacked him in the head with a 2x4. then he mumbled something about a FICO score..... oie

    On one hand, the flow of credit in the U.S. allows those who are poor a way to lift themselves out of their poverty
    unless they are getting investment for a small business, then no, it isn't; it is a trap. there is a reason that payday loan type establishments target poorer neighborhoods; because the poor are stupid enough to use them.

    What is the ultimate solution to this?
    get Americans unhooked from living in debt; become a nation of savers rather than a nation of consumers. maintain a small federal government with a balanced budget funded by a tax scheme that is at once simple and light.

    Another reason is the sheer number of tax exemptions available to people. While conservative pundits like to blame Democrats for giving the poor for all these exemptions, Republicans are also to blame for giving exemptions to their poor supporters, most poor social conservatives who get tax breaks for children.
    if there is one thing we should give a tax exemption for, taking care of American citizens who as of yet cannot support themselves is it. but yes, the vast majority of exemptions need to go; one of the reasons i'm a fairtax fan is that it reduces the huge amount of pork that is represented by the current tax code.

    But why should people with children get more tax exemptions when they use more tax-provided government services, such as public education for their children?
    because of the myriad costs associated with raising children; costs those parents incur when they provide for American citizens who cannot provide for themselves.

    Maybe we should increase taxes on couples with children since they consume more government services than singles without children.
    well if you want to reduce the number of children born in America and ensure our collapse as a society, that would be one way to do it.

    But that would be against the "family values" of social conservatives who love kids so much they despise birth control, and would call any Republican who supported it a RINO.
    i'ma social conservative, me and my wife use birth control. I have no beef with folks who don't, but i think you are misrepresenting the right here. what we hate is using abortion as birth control

    So the reason why the middle class is suffering and the reason why the poor stay poor can't be reduced to the system of taxes we use.
    it is a cause, especially inasmuch as it inhibits growth.

    but directly as well. if you are bringing in 20K a year, you are getting taxed at a 15% rate from federal income taxes. but you are also paying payroll; economists are pretty much unanimous that employer matches come out of compensation, so that comes out to an additional 14.7%. you're paying almost 30% of your income to the Federal Government on those two alone, before you try to save/invest the money you've already paid taxes on, purchase gasoline, or any other of the myriad things the government now taxes. The Fair Tax is - if anything - more progressive than the current tax structure, you pay no tax whatsoever if you spend at the poverty level; if you spend (which means that you have made more than) twice the poverty level, you are still only paying 11.5%; a little over a third of the amount paid above.
    Last edited by cpwill; 07-11-10 at 02:02 AM.

  6. #96
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    What's the most 'fair' tax system? (not asking which is most sustainable, just which would be most 'fair', in a morality sort of way)
    A say a national sales tax is the most fair system. seeing how you pay taxes anytime you buy stuff and the more you buy the more taxes you pay. Then a flat percentage tax on income is the 2nd most fair seeing how everyone would be paying the same percentage of their income in taxes. I am curious as to how anyone can say the progressive tax is the most fair.The government taking more of your money solely just because you make more is not in any shape or form fair. This is why I check the always allow others to see who voted" option because I have to wonder members are cheating at the poll question.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #97
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But a flat tax won't end it either. If you ask me, the reason why the middle class are getting hit hard and the poor are getting poorer is for a multitude of reasons.
    How are the poor getting poorer? The poor now have vehicles,telephones/cellphones, color tv in more than one room, cable, computers.Sure alot of those things are either used, paid for on lay away or rent to own and or given to them, but to say the poor is getting poorer is an absurd statement. Poor people in other countries would sell their left testicle to be a poor man in the USA.
    Last edited by jamesrage; 07-11-10 at 02:26 AM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    We've had a progressive tax system for near on 100 years.
    In the minds of many, prosperity hasn't been spread and the wealth has continued to accumulate at the top.

    Is that a failing at the implementation of the progressive tax?
    I would say yes. There are too many loopholes for tax evasion.

  9. #99
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    I think to totally summarize my point here.

    We've had some sort of progressive taxation for the better part of 100 years and the amount of relative poverty is more or less the same (over the past 40 years at least).
    We've increased regulations from 1 book of approximately 1,000 pages to multiple volumes compromising approximately 70,000 pages.

    Is there a point when you ask yourself, when is it enough? What have we really accomplished?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #100
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    Re: Which tax system is most 'fair'

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    I would say yes. There are too many loopholes for tax evasion.
    I know you're not particularly familiar with the U.S. tax code but the poor here get very generous tax benefits.
    They essentially have a negative tax rate.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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