View Poll Results: is access to the internet a fundamental right?

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Thread: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

  1. #81
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    On what basis? Fish live too. Do they have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
    Please read John Locke's definition of a person vs a man. Hobbes & Locke were the original philosophers of the United States Constitution. A Person has consciousness. A man is just an animal as is the fish. And so this is the basis that I, and the founders of the our constitution, explain why we have our fundamental rights - because we live as people.


    Then where did they come from?
    They come from our mere existence as people.



    Again, this is just a debate over semantics rather than a useful policy discussion. It doesn't really matter if you call it a "fundamental right" as Finland does, or you call it a "privilege" or "entitlement" or whatever else you like.
    I believe it can seem like a debate over semantics. But I assure you it is not. I hope that you can see there is a difference between fundamental rights and Privelages. Privelages are something the government grants. The state provides these for you. A fundamental right is a right that you have regardless of what the government gives you. If your government does not give you the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, that does not mean you are less entitled to these rights. It means that your government is corrupt in restricting what is fundamentally yours, simply because you live! So there is a difference. Privelages are that which we are not entitled to simply because we live. Like new sneakers. Or a new car. Or the internet. We are not arguing over 'words' but over 'ideas'. It is not semantics.

    So, I hope that clears that accusation up - not semantics, but rather philosophical ideas. Now to get back to the debate: Should the government provide internet to each home? Is this a privelage (which it is by definition a privelage, not a fundamental right) that we the people believe the government should force upon us?

    My answer is always 'no' to any question in this context. I believe that an ideal government should protect our fundamental rights. I am willing to give to the government, in the form of taxes, if and only if it is to protect the fundamental rights of myself and of all citizens. This is the only thing taxes should ever go towards, ideally. Economies of scale would suggest that this is the most affordable way to protect these rights, which we all need protected. But as soon as we start trying to make privelages law, then we start asking people for money (privelages cost money!) for something that they may not agree with. It is their money. Their property. They have a fundamental right to keep what is there's if they choose to (beyond giving what is necessary to protect their fundamental rights). So, though I may love the idea of getting internet in every home and may voluntarily donate to such a cause, I am 100% against forcing people to pay into this privelage so that all may have it. Because by forcing it upon the people, you are taking something away that is so much more important than people getting the internet: you are taking their money/property/freedom to choose what they do with their property which IS a fundamental right. If it is mine, it is mine to choose what I should do with it (assuming that it doesn't directly conflict with the fundamental right of another person).

    So it's not a question of whether or not it's a fundamental right. It's not, by definition. It's not a question of whether or not it's a good idea that everyone have the internet. It is a great idea, IMO. It's a question of whether or not it is the government's job. Does the government have the 'right' to take away your rights in order to implement what the majority feels is a 'great idea'? never.

  2. #82
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Before the invention of the printing press, "freedom the press" didn't really exist since their was nothing for that right to address. I see it as the same way
    "freedom of the press" is not a freedom that says that all people are entitled to the press. It's a freedom that says the press has freedom of speech.

    So if you want to compare that to the freedom of the internet, it is not saying that people are entitled to the internet. It's a freedom that says the internet has freedom of speech.

    I feel you've twisted a law to make a non-existant point.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    "freedom of the press" is not a freedom that says that all people are entitled to the press. It's a freedom that says the press has freedom of speech.

    So if you want to compare that to the freedom of the internet, it is not saying that people are entitled to the internet. It's a freedom that says the internet has freedom of speech.

    I feel you've twisted a law to make a non-existant point.
    What I'm saying is that freedom of the press didn't exist before the concept of the press was there. Why is that so hard to understand?
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    What I'm saying is that freedom of the press didn't exist before the concept of the press was there. Why is that so hard to understand?
    Because it doesn't make any sense to me. Yes, speed limits exist because cars exist. Freedom of press exists because the press exists. These are laws that protect fundamental rights of people against these 'new' technologies that could possibly inhibit their rights. The government GIVING internet to every household in the US because it exists doesn't make sense. They are not protecting fundamental rights in this action. It is very difficult to understand how you 'view it the same way'.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    Because it doesn't make any sense to me. Yes, speed limits exist because cars exist. Freedom of press exists because the press exists. These are laws that protect fundamental rights of people against these 'new' technologies that could possibly inhibit their rights. The government GIVING internet to every household in the US because it exists doesn't make sense. They are not protecting fundamental rights in this action. It is very difficult to understand how you 'view it the same way'.
    Except I'm not trying to argue the merits of what Finland is doing, what I'm doing is disagreeing with DA who was suggesting that the right is invalid because we haven't always had computers, at least that's how I read it.
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    I think that can get shaky, as you have it phrased. You can excersise your rights because we have a legal system. My taxes go to pay for that legal system,
    These are political, not fundamental rights. Certain rights, like due process and the protection from self-incrimination, cannot exist w/o a government against which they may be exercised. Tese are different animals than the right to life, peoperty, etc, all of which exiat outside government.

    So, not the same. Sorry I didnt make that distinction earlier.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    These are political, not fundamental rights. Certain rights, like due process and the protection from self-incrimination, cannot exist w/o a government against which they may be exercised. Tese are different animals than the right to life, peoperty, etc, all of which exiat outside government.

    So, not the same. Sorry I didnt make that distinction earlier.
    Ok, I get what you were saying. You can see how this would be a legal right but not a fundamental right, and I would probably agree.

    Though to be honest, I am somewhat skeptical of the concept of "fundamental rights". Show me an atom of "right to life", or a waveform of "right to property".
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Except I'm not trying to argue the merits of what Finland is doing, what I'm doing is disagreeing with DA who was suggesting that the right is invalid because we haven't always had computers, at least that's how I read it.
    ahhh, I see. Thank you for the clarification. I didn't understand the context in which you made your statement.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by the makeout hobo View Post
    Though to be honest, I am somewhat skeptical of the concept of "fundamental rights". Show me an atom of "right to life", or a waveform of "right to property".
    IMHO, and given what I said before, "fundamental' rights are those that form the core of our society, without which our society ceases to be our society and becomes something else.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    IMHO, and given what I said before, "fundamental' rights are those that form the core of our society, without which our society ceases to be our society and becomes something else.
    So essentially, they're a societal construct, but the fundamental constructs society needs to function?
    The Makeout Hobo is real, and does indeed travel around the country in his van and make out with ladies... If you meet the Makeout Hobo, it is customary to greet him with a shot of whiskey and a high five (if you are a dude) or passionate makeouts (if you are a lady).

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