View Poll Results: is access to the internet a fundamental right?

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Thread: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

  1. #41
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    You are.
    His reasonng isnt really reasoning, rather a set of things he says are true because he says so - there's no supportable sound reasoning behind those things, just his say-so.
    He says his are so just as I say mine are so. Based on our own beliefs. I will not be so arrogant as to assume my beliefs are, without doubt, the 'correct' beliefs. Which is why it's always good to give the benefit of the doubt and actually try to understand. Arguing to prove you're right just by putting the other person down is ineffective and not at the heart of my intent of debate. I feel sorry for you if this is your intent.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    He says his are so just as I say mine are so.
    You can say so all you want - if you cannot provide a sound argument to support them, then all you're doing is spouting babble. If all -you- want to do is see what other people think, that's fine, but its rather assuming of you to take issue with people who are here foe other reasons and challenge others to show sound support for their beliefs.

    I will not be so arrogant as to assume my beliefs are, without doubt, the 'correct' beliefs.
    There is a difference between "correct" and "sound".

  3. #43
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Fundamental rights are a fluid thing and they evolve and expand. Now I know this does not sit well with certain conservative minded folks, but that is never the less a fact. For example.

    The right to free speech and vote in the US. Today American's take it for granted but it is not long ago that free speech and voting rights were denied to people of colour and before that, 50% of the population (women) and before that was only given too a select few (men of a certain age and stature).

    Hence what has happened in Finland, a very very wired nation, is nothing more than an evolution of fundamental rights.
    PeteEU

  4. #44
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    And again, I believe philosophy and morals ought to be the only motivation. If you do something based on a feeling of emergency that is morally or philosophically unsound, you should not do it. I don't see areas of grey in this matter. Again, this is the heart of our disagreement.
    Actually, I agree with that. I wish for more pure legislation as well. Ultimately, the function of a law is to limit freedom as they regulate society. Antijaywalking laws limit my freedom of where I cross the street. There is a law saying I cannot commit murder, etc. However, the exercise of those freedoms can be dangerous and harmful, so I don't mind giving them up.

    I think the heart of our disagreement is what we think of as freedoms.

  5. #45
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    When you classify something as a fundamental right, that's -exactly- what you are doing.


    This is completely incorrect.
    Rghts are not granted by government, privileges are. Nowhere in the constitution or in federal law are you granted the right to free speech, the right to arms, etc.
    You're just arguing semantics, not policy...and you're doing it in the context of a foreign nation which doesn't even operate under the same legal principles as the United States does.
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    Someone is WRONG on the internet! -XKCD

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    You're just arguing semantics, not policy...and you're doing it in the context of a foreign nation which doesn't even operate under the same legal principles as the United States does.
    This means what I said is wrong, because...?

  7. #47
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    I think, it is a right. As in, it should not be heavily censored in any country, and should not be banned either. People have a right to information, in my opinion.

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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    I would say any 'fundamental' right exists because we live. That's how I define a fundamental right. A right that you have merely because you live.
    On what basis? Fish live too. Do they have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz
    You have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The government doesn't give these rights.
    Then where did they come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz
    It protects them. The government can protect your right to have internet, but it cannot 'give' it to you. So I counter-challenge you to explain how any fundamental right is given to us by the government. I cannot think of one.
    Again, this is just a debate over semantics rather than a useful policy discussion. It doesn't really matter if you call it a "fundamental right" as Finland does, or you call it a "privilege" or "entitlement" or whatever else you like.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-02-10 at 05:01 PM.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This means what I said is wrong, because...?
    Who said it was "wrong"? Finland's concept of fundamental rights is simply DIFFERENT than yours. You are judging them through an ethnocentric, American lens...and in fact, through a very specific type of American lens (i.e. constitutional fundamentalism). It's a cultural difference, not a question of right or wrong. Your view is no more correct than anyone else's, and arguing that you have made a sound argument for the correctness of your view is, frankly, stupid. All you've done is made some assertions based on your view of how the United States Constitution should be interpreted.

    If you want to make a policy argument over why Finland shouldn't guarantee its citizens internet access, be my guest. But don't tell me how you're right and they're wrong about the definition of "fundamental rights," as it is ENTIRELY a matter of perception.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 07-02-10 at 05:00 PM.
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  10. #50
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    Re: Access to the internet - a fundamental right?

    Rights vs. Privileges
    Internet access is not a right!
    Internet access is provided by the labor of others, thus you cannot have a right to it just like you do not have a right to your neighbor’s food just because you are hungry.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

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