View Poll Results: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

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    10 14.93%
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    55 82.09%
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Thread: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

  1. #41
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Is it as offensive, in your mind, if it's a minority directing their hatred at a larger group? Say like how atheists often refer to the beliefs of the religious as fairytales and myths born out of ignorance? I think that is pretty hateful. Is that offensive to you?
    By the way, what is the difference between belief in fairy tales and belief in religious stories? The number of people that believe the stories in the different classifications to be true? I'm just not sure there is any other way to tell the difference
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    By the way, what is the difference between belief in fairy tales and belief in religious stories? The number of people that believe the stories in the different classifications to be true? I'm just not sure there is any other way to tell the difference
    That's how hypothetical constructs work.
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  3. #43
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    yes or no?

    I say definately not. It is a form of speech. So long as it is done with proper permits, etc. I mean, you can't just walk out on Main street with such a demonstration. That's just disruptive.

    My favorite argument against flag-burning legislation is this: In the legislation, they always allow the boyscouts to burn the flag when it is torn or tattered as the proper disposal of the flag.

    So boyscouts can do it. But I can't do it in my own home if I'm angry at the US (though note - I would be really angry if I saw someone doing this - I'm very patriotic). So what's the difference between the boyscouts and what I do? Answer: What we are thinking - which is our reason for doing it. So you're not making it illegal to burn a flag - you're making it illegal to think certain thoughts while burning a flag. The government... trying to control what we think. Ouch.

    On the greater scale - The US Flag represents America -which represents all of our individual freedoms. How hypocritcal would it be to refuse a freedom (of speech) in order to protect the symbol of such a freedom? (and likewise, how hypocritical would it be to burn such a symbol?) But let the individual choose to be hypocritical - that's their freedom to do so - don't put it in legislation for goodness sake!

    It seems obvious to me and so I don't understand what the arguments are for such legislation - I figure this would be the best place to get opposing views
    Yes, it's arson and should be illegal. Arson is not speech.

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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Yes, it's arson and should be illegal. Arson is not speech.
    Everyone at the campground was commiting arson last weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
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  5. #45
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    By the way, what is the difference between belief in fairy tales and belief in religious stories? The number of people that believe the stories in the different classifications to be true? I'm just not sure there is any other way to tell the difference
    Is it hate speech or free speech to burn a bible? The Koran?

  6. #46
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    By the way, what is the difference between belief in fairy tales and belief in religious stories? The number of people that believe the stories in the different classifications to be true? I'm just not sure there is any other way to tell the difference
    It doesn't matter what the difference is, I was questioning your assertion that hate speech is committed by a majority and directed at an oppressed minority.

  7. #47
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbbtx View Post
    Is it hate speech or free speech to burn a bible? The Koran?
    I am unsure. Do you think that burning a religion's scripture text has the effect of inciting hatred of the respective religion's followers?

    Furthermore, just because I consider something to be hate speech and am offended by it doesn't mean that I believe that speech should be censored by law. So, hate speech and free speech can be the same thing. That is, expressions which are hate speech can also be manifestations of free speech. The reason I point this out is because your question "Is it hate speech or free speech...?" would seem to imply that they are mutually exclusive, which they are not. An expression can be both. In fact, almost all hate speech is also free speech.
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  8. #48
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It doesn't matter what the difference is, I was questioning your assertion that hate speech is committed by a majority and directed at an oppressed minority.
    And I answered your query with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    I don't view that to be hate speech. I don't see how it would incite people to hatred of religious people. It might be offensive because in certain contexts it borders on rude. I am not sure that would be the case here, in a forum where what you've described just looks like standard frank discussion, which is what is supposed to happen here. I just don't even think that what you've quoted rises even to the level of incivility here. But, I would be shocked to see someone post it, say, on Facebook.

    But, in general, no, it is not usually as offensive when the less powerful group attacks the more powerful group with hate speech. Usually, this is the oppressed lashing out at the group containing their oppressors. While it is still offensive, it is usually powerless to have an effect on the lives of that more powerful group.

    Which brings us to one of the main reasons hate speech is offensive at all, perhaps the main reason: Its potential to affect, in concrete and adverse ways, the lives of the people it targets. When the oppressed lash out at their oppressors with calumny, it just doesn't have that added oomph. Thus, not as offensive, to me.
    Which is as much as to say, 'yes, it is all hate speech', but to qualify by adding 'but some is more offensive than others because it is not solely the speech alone that is offensive, but rather its potential to foment real harm'.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    And I answered your query with this:



    Which is as much as to say, 'yes, it is all hate speech', but to qualify by adding 'but some is more offensive than others because it is not solely the speech alone that is offensive, but rather its potential to foment real harm'.
    Thanks. I disagree that some hate speech is more offensive than others simply due to who is speaking hate. Hate is hate.

  10. #50
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    Re: Should burning the US flag in America be illegal?

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Thanks. I disagree that some hate speech is more offensive than others simply due to who is speaking hate. Hate is hate.
    emphasis mine


    That's fine. You seem to be basing the amount you are offended on what is going on inside the head of the person doing the speaking (i.e. whether they are hating). I don't. I base my level of offense on what is likely to happen as a result of the speaking, and I couldn't really care less what is going on inside the head of the speaker. In my view, hate speech doesn't even need to be spoken by someone who is actually hating, for it to be hate speech.

    Your view allows you to be significantly offended at any speech where you can speculate that the person speaking is being hateful. Mine allows me to be offended where I can speculate that the effect will be harmful.

    Thus, I end up offended on behalf of people who are oppressed. You should end up defending the relatively powerful from the relatively powerless. I am sure your defense of them is sorely needed.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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