View Poll Results: Is America a Christian nation?

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Thread: Is America a Christian Nation?

  1. #41
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    I voted no even though I misunderstood the question, I thought you were asking if the government itself was a Christian one.

    Rereading your question, I would say yes we are a nation of Christians, but No, we are not a Christian Nation.
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  2. #42
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    I don't think Christ would be too happy with the so called Christians of America. So no. America is not a nation of Christians. Just people who pretend to be Christian when it suits them.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    If it doesn't mean that, then your argument is founded on equivocation becuxse you are using culture as your definition of Nation.
    I have training I have to go to real quick at work so can't respond to the long one now so will respond to teh short one.

    Its not equivocation. You can see from the very first post I made actually concerning my views on this that I clearly detail that there are two Types of nations that generally are thought to exist.

    The CULTURAL nation and the POLITICAL nation. Neither of these are my terms, and I'm not going to simply not use them because they are confusing you.

    A CULTURAL nation is a grouping of people sharing a common language, ethnicity, culture, religion, or history. Notice "culture" is one of the actual ways in which a "Cultural nation" can be defined. Notice it can also be defined by a number of things that are not cultures, such as language or history. When I say its their common culture in regards to the nation I am meaning it as the common bond that forms a cultural nation, not necessarily they all share the same "Culture". Yes, I fully understand how this is confusing and its the fault of the way the terms are used. Perhaps if I call a "cultural nation" a "Non-Political Nation" it would help.

    Let me restate my statement then to perhaps make it easier to understand. Religion provides a common non-political connection required for that type of Nation amongst a majority of people in this country, thus it is a Christian Nation.

    There, I've extract the word cultural from it to remove confusion. Admittedly, it was likely my mistake with attempting to use that designator and not realizing the inherent confusion it may supply. I was using culture NOT as the definition for the nation I was speaking about, but as the classification.

    Let me reclassify with there being "Non-Political" Nations and "Political" Nations. Let me further clarify that "Non-Political" Nations are groupings based upon common language, ethnicity, religion, history, and culture. Where as "Political Nations" are those that are formed through rational and political ideological beliefs commonly held amongsts the people that allows them to assert their common will to form a nation.

    Mind you this is not "moving the goal posts" as both of those are the same definitions I've been going off of since the beginning, but simply rebranding "Cultural Nation" to something less confusing.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A CULTURAL nation is a grouping of people sharing a common language, ethnicity, culture, religion, or history. Notice "culture" is one of the actual ways in which a "Cultural nation" can be defined. Notice it can also be defined by a number of things that are not cultures, such as language or history. When I say its their common culture in regards to the nation I am meaning it as the common bond that forms a cultural nation, not necessarily they all share the same "Culture". Yes, I fully understand how this is confusing and its the fault of the way the terms are used. Perhaps if I call a "cultural nation" a "Non-Political Nation" it would help.

    Let me restate my statement then to perhaps make it easier to understand. Religion provides a common non-political connection required for that type of Nation amongst a majority of people in this country, thus it is a Christian Nation.
    The problem with this is that it is equivocation. The reason is that you are changing the meaning of nation when you are saying the political nation of the US and when you are saying the Christian nation of Christian Americans.

    When you use it to describe the US, you are talking about the geo-political area of the US, when you use it to decribe the Christian nation within the US, you are using the religion.

    That's the fatal flaw in your argument.

    If you stick with the same classification throughout, which would be "A CULTURAL nation is a grouping of people sharing a common religion." in this case.

    Then the cultural nation of the Christian nation includes ALL Christians WORLDWIDE but does not include ALL AMERICANS.

    Thus, the argument that America is a Christian Nation fails. The problem is that you cannot consistently apply the same definition to "cultural nation" throughout the entire argument and reach the conclusion you want to force into place.


    Your argument must involve equivocation in order to say "The US is a Christian Nation" using the very rules you have created. It absolutely positively has to be present.

    Because a consistent application of the terms and rules means that the Christian Nation being discussed is both larger than the US and doesn't fully encompass the US.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-01-10 at 03:09 PM.
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  5. #45
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    False. Once you started using the term "baseline" and "foundation" you were making it the primary description. I've proven it is not the baseline or foundation with data.
    "Baseline" and "Foundation" as being a common thing found across that population. While a house may look different in a hundred parts in a thousand ways, the majority of its foundation is similar. While there are many different levels above a particular baseline, the base is still the same. I am using those words not to denote that a Christian Nation is the PRIMARY type of nation, the very notion that I acknowledge in my first post on this that it isn't even the most prevelant binding thing shows that the accusation is false, but simply pointing out that Christianity presents a commonly held trait amongst the majority of the population. From that point forward there are many divergences in regards to what denomination, how they practice their religion, how staunch they are in their faith. However, when it is tore down to is foundation, the common block for them all is "Christianity".

    That is why I used the words foundation and baseline, not as a denotion that Christianity was the absolute singular common bond amongst the majority of the people in the country but as a designated common starting point in regards to the SPECIFIC type of designation that can reflect a "Non-political Nation", IE a shared religion.

    According to the American Religion Identification Survey 76% of American's self Identified in 2008 as Christian. This means more than 3/4ths of the American Population holds a common religion. That is data. That is data you've failed to dispute. You've claimed some of them may practice it differently. That does not dispute the fact that when boiled down, they still consider themselves Christian. You've claimed some of them may be weak practicioners. That does not dispute the fact that when boiled down, they still consider themselves Christian. You have claimed some of them may actually be more agnostic. That does not dispute the fact that when boiled down, and agnostic is an option, they still consider themselves Christian.

    A shared common religion, of which Christianity is one for more than 3/4ths of the country, is one way in which a nation can be defined. Despite your claims, you have no provided data that shows the data provided concerning 3/4th's of the country being Christian as incorrect.

    Now, granted, I accept the notion that you reject MY definition of a significant majority being more than 3/4th's of the population and believe it should have to be 100%, or 90%, etc. I fully admit that my number is arbitrary though I have reasons for it. However disagreeing that its a significant enough of a populations is different then providing data that the population is not as large as I say.

    I am not the one who is only offering an opinion here. I'm the only one hwo has offered actual data. You have never once presented anything but your opinion. This whole time I've been asking for you to once, just once, offer some data to show that the baseline or foundation of the shared cultural bond is Christianity.
    As stated in the other post, this is an issue of confusion of you looking for a cultural bond in regard to the literal meaning of the word, where I was speaking to a specific type of nation that happened to be labeled as Cultural without requiring a specifically shared culture.

    Their shared bond is their religion, which is Christianity.

    You haven't. you've relied on multiple fallacies to argue for your opinion. Equivocation ("I don't mean culture, I mean culture" )
    As explained in the other post, I used a terminology that in and of itself was contradictory in that it is called a "Cultural Nation" while not actually requiring a shared "culture" in the way you're using it. it was not equivocation, it was an attempt to better explain what was being said.

    the package deal fallacy ("Since the majority labels themselves as Christians, that is our baseline cultural bond).
    That's not a fallacy, that's the very definition of a nation. A majority of people share a common [x], thus creating a baseline bond that they all share, thus creation a nation.

    where X is equal to language, religion, culture, ethnicity, history, etc.

    In this case "A Majority of people share a common religion, thus creating a baseline bond that they all share, creation a Christian Nation".

    Unless you're somehow saying "People considering themselves christian" doesn't mean they're Christian, and that two people who have the same religion don't actually have the same religion.

    Here's the same flawed argument (where everything is accurate) but with a different term instead of Christian:

    "Its reasonable to assume that likely close to 95%+ considered themselves white at the time of the countries founding, with it still being more than 3/4ths of the country today being part of that group. The overwhelming majority that represents whites in this country makes it unmistakable to me that as a cultural nation the U.S. is without question a white Nation."
    Yes, one could ABSOLUTELY make an argument of us being a "Caucasian Nation". More accurately probably at the early days of the nation, or even some 50 years ago. However I think it would be very difficult to do so now. Why? Because in my mind to rightfully consider a significant enough majority to be considered a nation one would need a significant one, IE more than 3/4ths in my eyes. Currently, Whites (removing latinos who double counted as both hispanic AND white) make up 65.4% of the American population leaving them under that 3/4ths factor.

    So in my mind, while at one point you could claim that America was a Caucasian Nation, one could not do so any longer.

    As a point of reference, we're extremely close of having a similar situation in regards to Christian Nation and if historical trends continue then by the next time the ARIS report comes out we likely will see it fall under that 3/4ths mark at which point I'd actually suggest we are no longer a Christian Nation.

    The truth is, you aren't even presenting an argument. You are stating your opinion and then backing that up with a fact that doesn't support that argument. I enlarged and bolded "cultural" in your claim to show that from the start, you've been using equivocation to defend your non-argument.
    I've made an argument. My argument is that America, as the generalized entity, is a Christian Nation, specifically a cultural nation or how I'm using it now for this discussion "Non-Political Nation". My basis for this is that more than 3/4ths of its population has a shared common religion, Christianity, with a "shared religion" being a designator for determining a nation.

    Again, your argument is centered around the use of the word culture, which I used only because it was the designation for the TYPE of nation. My mistake on not taking into account the likely confusion that would arise from it.

    When I focused on that term, which was extremely relevant to your claim, you said I was "harping" on it and that it was actually irrelevant to your claim. Of course, this was after you admitted you couldn't give any evidence of cultural uniformity amongst Christians.
    Except it wasn't relevant to my claim, it was simply the classification of the type of nation based on the commonly held classifications. Said classification of nation can be defined by a shared religion rather than a shared culture, even though its a cultural nation.

    Because you couldn't support the claim in any way, you moved the goalposts to say that you meant the "baseline" (which is the "foundation") cultural bond was Christianity.
    That was not moving the goal posts, that was trying to state it in another way since you were having issues understanding my meaning of why "culture" as you used it was not a requirement.

    I then showed evidence that proves that the foundation of our shared culture is not Christianity, it is Individualism.
    You did, which does not diminish the foundation with regards to a shared religion, which is Christianity. It simply shows yet another particular way one could define the entity known as America in regards to a Nation. Individualism, specifically as you used it, would likely fall under the "political nation" definition and is actually a more succicnt way of putting the very thing I talked about in my first post concerning this with regards to the type of political nation America is.

    Then you move the goalposts again to point out "proving there are other potential nations that one could denote within the United States does not disprove the existance of other potential nations within it"
    Again, this was not a moved goalpost. The very first post I made in this thread concerning my views on it established:

    1. That Religion was not the most wide reaching commonality that is usable in the definition of a "non-political nation", but that it would be language.
    2. That there were multiple nations one could label America as, citing both a Christian Nation and a Nation of Freedom (or, but far better by you, an Individualistic Nation)

    How in the world can I change the goal post when they are in the same place I had them in the very first detailed post I made?

  6. #46
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    The problem with that argument is that the Christian nation is, itself, a one of those nations within the US, but that does not comprise the whole of the US. Your own demographic data proves that it doesn't comprise the whole.
    And this is your first argument that has merit in my eyes, which is arguing the only portion of opinion I used to state my assertion. My use of more than 3/4th's is arbitrary as there is no defined metric for how many people within a population is needed. The reason I use 3/4ths is because I've consistantly used that over the years as my designation for a substantial or extremely significant majority. I used the same general metric earlier last year when describing the difference between what I view as a strong win and a landslide in regards to elections. I've used it when arguing that America isn't a "White Nation" in previous threads. My view is that when more than 3/4th's of something is a particular way that makes up a significant majority. As such, I apply that to the notion of a nation with the belief that 100% adherance to something in particular is nearly if not literally impossible for such a designation, and thus for my mind a cut off would be needed.

    There is nothing saying my cut off is correct. Someone could argue that 51% of the population of an entity having a similar religion, language, culture, ethnicity, or history. Someone could argue that 95% is required. Both aren't necessarily any more or less legitimate than my argument.

    I fully acknowledge your argument that it is not shared by 100% so therefore you wouldn't consider it a nation. While I disagree, there's nothing wrong or in error about your argument. I would however say that such an argument would invalidate your own concerning individualism as there are still people within the state of America who would potentially uphold non-individualist ideology.

    So if we designate these potential smaller nations within the US as "subnations" of the US, your best argument is that the Christian nation is the largest subnation within the US, but that the US itself cannot be described as a Christian Nation because it is not a universally shared belief for the entire US as whole.
    The "US" itself is simply an entity. You could claim that the United States could reference simultaneously a State (body of government with defined territory over defined population), a Country (A defined geographical region, generally with politically defined borders), and a Nation in and of itself (Based on the shared History of the state/country that all of its citizens share through the act of being citizens, or based on the Political Nation identity as Individualists).

    Which is kind of why it gets tricky talking about these things. I am seeing your point Tucker, and I think the biggest issue here is a matter that what a Nation is is still relatively loosely defined with a number of variables undefined...the largest of which in this instance for us is the amount of population within a state, country, or perhaps even nation that is required to share the common bond to be able to constitute a nation.

    And now I feel like a dog chasing its tail. LOL

    The "Super nation" that can be used toe describe the US as a whole is not the Christian nation. That is a sub-nation within that super-nation. The Super-nation can be described as an Individualistic one, but it cannot be described as a Christian one.
    As I stated above, by your own goal posts for what constitutes a Nation as far as numbers go ("entire US as whole"), we could not be considered an Individualist nation unless the entire US population as a whole held onto the notion of Individualist ideology.

    You have to look at it from the outside in. To make the claim that, as a cultural nation the US is _____ Culture, the thing that fills in the blank must comprise the whole of the US culturally.
    And there was the disconnect we were having throughout this.

    You go "cultural nation = _____ Culture" where the blank was the type of culture....I was going "Cultural Nation = _______ Nation" where the blank was the specific item relating to one of the designations of a Cultural Nation (specific religion, specific ethnicity, specific language, etc).

    That was the disconnect throughout this I think, and your blank showed it perfectly. I regret not going for the non-typically used name immedietely and just starting with "Non-Political" and "Political" Nations.

    It would include every Christian in the US, but it wouldn't include the entire US because not everyone in the US shares that common bond.
    This goes back to the whole nation within nations thing. My specific discussion was confined to the boundries of the population within the state/country of America.

    If you actually use that definition honestly, you will see that you can never make the claim that the Nation of people comprising the US is a Christian nation, because the grouping of individuals that comprise the entire US do not share that common bond of Christianity.
    As I said, this goes to the differing opinions in regards to what is required for a nation...either 100% commonality, or majority commonality, and if majority commonality how large of a majority. You seem to require 100% commonality, even though your own definition of a type of nation America is wouldn't stand up to that scrutiny.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem with this is that it is equivocation. The reason is that you are changing the meaning of nation when you are saying the political nation of the US and when you are saying the Christian nation of Christian Americans.
    No, its not. I am not using the term in an intend to mislead. I am using the term becasue that's what is commonly refered to. For example the United States Declaration of Independence is specifically at times mentioned as the creation of a "political nation" seperate from the more traditional "Cultural nation". These are not my words but the ones already defined by others. I am not choosing to use terms with multiple meanings with an intent to mislead but am simply using the words as they're supposed to be used. The issue is the definitions themselves are misleading, which I have admitted to my error in not identifying that from the beginning and rectifying it.

    There are two types of generally accepted nations. What I'm not calling the "Non-Political" Nation (and more correctly called a cultural nation) that is defined off of more social and tangible things such as Religion, Language, Ethnicity, etc. Then there is a "Political Nation" that is based off of a the will of individuals to form a political community adhering to a shared political philosophy is enough to constitute a Nation.

    When you use it to describe the US, you are talking about the geo-political area of the US, when you use it to decribe the Christian nation within the US, you are using the religion.
    When I speak of America I speak in general in regards to the Country and State, and thus the people within it. When I speak of "America" being a "Christian Nation" I am providing a definitive boundry (the country of America) regarding the population (those within that country) which is forming the particular nation (in this case a non-political one based on christianity)

    If you stick with the same classification throughout, which would be "A CULTURAL nation is a grouping of people sharing a common religion." in this case.
    Correct.

    In this case the grouping of people I'm speaking about are those that are within the country of the US, and the sharing of a common religion being Christianity.

    Then the cultural nation of the Christian nation includes ALL Christians WORLDWIDE but does not include ALL AMERICANS.
    The "Christian Nation" in general without any other designations absolutely could refer to the entire entity of Christians World Wide.

    When I specifically state "America is a Christian Nation" it is defining the population I'm speaking of as those within the borders of America.

    Thus, the argument that America is a Christian Nation fails. The problem is that you cannot consistently apply the same definition to "cultural nation" throughout the entire argument and reach the conclusion you want to force into place.
    Yes, I have consistantly applied it. Simply because you wish to ignore the fact from the very onset of this thread, from its very title, that definitive paramaters upon what group of people is being spoken about doesn't mean I'm being inconsistant.

    In regards to the not fully encompassing the US, again, I detailed that issue in my other post. You're absolutely right in stating that as a disagreement with my assertion of a Christian Nation based on your own definition of how many people within a particular population must share the common bond to be able to consider it a nation.

  8. #48
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Thanks for the lively discussion by the way

  9. #49
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Thanks for the lively discussion by the way
    Agreed I've been following alng as well.

  10. #50
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    I've googled the following "A CULTURAL nation is a grouping of people sharing a common language, ethnicity, culture, religion, or history." and I can find no source to corroborate this definition.


    Could you please provide a source?
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

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