View Poll Results: Is America a Christian nation?

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    8 12.70%
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Thread: Is America a Christian Nation?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Yup, America is a theocracy.
    'The whole universe is going to die!'

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Thank you Tucker for being the only person who stated "No" that explained his reasoning in thread.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Thank you Tucker for being the only person who stated "No" that explained his reasoning in thread.
    Hey! I explained my reasoning in the thread.

  4. #34
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Sorry sam, missed it

  5. #35
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I can't truly make an argument, because you're arguing onto semantics, attempting to cut to the micro notion of it when what I am speaking of is a far more macro comment. You're focusing on the word "culture" and extrapolating far more meaning and far more merit to its use than is actually used here or is being stated. Culture, primarily, is being used as the designation of two separate definitions of nation...one of which is called cultural, the other is called political...not as the actual micro notion of culture which you continually harp on. Indeed, a shared "culture" in and of itself is one way in which a cultural nation can be defined. However simply sharing a common baseline religion is another way.

    While many in the U.S. may be "Christians Lite", may not be the most devout, may be of various denominations, at its base it is absolutely, without question, impossible to argue that over 75% of the country does not consider itself Christian. Rather you think they're "Real Christians", whether you think they're practicing Christians, whether you think they're Christians in name only, is all irrelevant to the fact that over 75% of the country considers itself Christian and thus has a shared religion. Now you COULD argue that it is not worth while enough to consider it a designation for a nation because a portion of that is weak, however you can not make the argument that they're not really Christian because ultimately that's not for YOU to decide for someone else, its for them to decide, and over 75% have decided they classify themselves as Christian.

    It doesn't matter if every single solitary one of them have a different Christian CULTURE, because the common bond in this cultural nation is NOT "culture" but "religion", which in this case is "Christianity".

    You are harping on what is essentially an irrelevant word for my argument.

    This was likely my mistake in speaking about a "Cultural Bond" in reference to being a Bond needed for a cultural nation designation more than a legitimate shared "Culture" as in very defined and set common attitudes, values, goals, and practices.

    As a general baseline, I simply have not seen a single reasonable or realistic argument for you to honestly say that every person who considers themselves Christian does not have some base feature with regards to religion in common amongst each other. Then again, I honestly don't understand how one can seriously make any kind of legitimate rational argument attempting to be suggest somehow Baptists and Catholics are entirely and completely separate religions, on the same scale that Judaism is a different religion as Islam or Wicca is different than Hinduism or Zoroastrianism is different than Taoism. That in and of itself is suggesting that "Christianity" doesn't actually exist as a religion, though by that definition Judaism and Islam don't actually exist because they have various denominations and sects as well.
    I just clicked the wrong button on accident and screwed up a huge argument showing that Individualism, not Christianity is the foundational cultural bond in the US so I'm not going to rewrite it all, but I'll give the crib notes version.

    Just take a look at collectivist countries that are still predominantly Christian, such as Greece, Brazil, Mexico or Guatemala. While we share the same "Christian" bond you claim is the foundation of our commonality in the US, we have very little in common culturally with these nations.

    But when we look at some Individualistic countries (we rank as the most individualistic country in the world, BTW), such as Germany, Australia, Switzerland, and the UK, we can see that these cultures are far "closer" to ours.

    For the UK and Australia, there is also the common language bond and the fact that both Australia and the US were English colonies at one point. Unsurprisingly, these are considered the three most individualistic cultures in the world:

    Individualistic Trade Cultures: Me First Countries Value Independent Achievements


    Both extremes on this list are dominated by predominantly Christian countries. The top five in both categories. Even more interesting is that the top five collectivist countries are one's that are stereotypically Christian while the top five individualistic countries are predominantly Christian, but not stereotypically so. The stereotype is closer to secularism.

    So I contend that your claim based only on demographic data is flawed. The concept of Individualism (which is so absurdly evident in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence) is the foundation upon which the American Cultural bond was built. Christianity may be an influence, but it is not, in any way shape or form, the baseline cultural bond.

    I contend that your argument has absolutely no merit because it is based on a fallacious assumption (package deal fallacy).

    I've presented a counter argument for the baseline cultural which has actually been supported by evidence that:

    1. Contradicts your claim of Christianity being, in and of itself, enough to form a baseline "cultural bond" at the macro level
    2. Provides evidence of a different baseline cultural bond which I contend to be the true cultural bond that the vast majority of American subcultures share (I can provide evidence of that if needed as well)



    (P.S. This is really the crib notes version. The other post was freakin huge before I lost it.)
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-01-10 at 11:47 AM.
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  6. #36
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Actually, I agree with the vast majority of what you said Tucker, and "Individualist Nation" is likely a far better way to say then a "Nation of Freedom" for how I'd define the U.S. as a POLITICAL nation. As you even point out in regards to the founding documents, individualism...which in turn is what really bread the whole freedom notion...is the generalized center piece for the idea of self governance by the people, for the people, of the people, that makes up the foundation for our political nation.

    So I can't really disagree with your argument, save for stating that this individualism is not a "culture" in and of itself but an ideology, and one that is tied to the Political Nation of America rather than the Cultural Nation.

    Thus the whole reason for my answer as a "yes or no". As a "cultural nation" as its generally defined, I would consider us a Christian Nation. Is that the ONLY type of cultural nation we could be? Absolutely not. We are also an English Nation (focusing on the "language" portion of being able to define a cultural nation). There are others. However one of those potential nations that can be described of America is a Christian Nation due to the significantly majority demographic that self identify as such.

    I also said "no", to distinguish the fact that a Christian Nation is not the ONLY type of nation one could describe within the United States of America. I pointed out one other cultural one already above, and another would be the "political nation" founded upon the idealistic individual notions espoused by the founders and in our founding documents that lays the groundwork for the idea of freedom for all and governance by the people, for the people, of the people. Thus, the United States of America is also an "Individualist Nation".

    While a particulare STATE can be singular...IE there can not be multiple "states" of the United States of America, there can be numerous NATIONS within a particular state.

  7. #37
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I've presented a counter argument for the baseline cultural which has actually been supported by evidence that:

    1. Contradicts your claim of Christianity being, in and of itself, enough to form a baseline "cultural bond" at the macro level
    2. Provides evidence of a different baseline cultural bond which I contend to be the true cultural bond that the vast majority of American subcultures share (I can provide evidence of that if needed as well)
    Actually, you proved neither.

    For a Cultural Nation to exist a significant grouping of people within a generalized location would need to have a common bond of some sort, with simply put a specific religion being one of those bonds. NOTHING you have shown, in any singular post you've made, proves that the fact that more than 3/4ths of the country self identifies as having the same religion is false. Without proving that false, you can not prove that over 3/4ths of the country has a shared religion. Without being able to prove that you can't state that it could not be considered a nation. You can argue that a portion of that grouping is a "weak" variety of that religion, but my counter is they still self identify as that religion so whether you think its "weak" or not still does not change the fact that its their religion, and that its a shared religion with the vast majority of hte country.

    And two, proving there are other potential nations that one could denote within the United States does not disprove the existance of other potential nations within it. Because the vast majority of the country speaks English does not mean that one could not identify within the United States any other "nation" simply due to the fact there's already one defined through language.

    The only argument you could possibly make is that a "Christian Nation" is not the largest designation one could make of the type of nation the US is, but that is different than arguing that it ISN'T one.

    You keep speaking of what you have "proved" tucker but you've proved nothing, save for what your opinion is. You've offered no proof to contradict my statements, simply opinions as to why you disagree and proof that mine isn't the only definable version....which is a fallacy of your own as I've never made the argument that the U.S. can ONLY be considered a Christian nation.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    You're issue tucker is a continued focus on the word "culture" in a literalistic sense in regards to the lifestyle, habits, and processes of people within a particular group. So when I say "Christianity" you immedietely try to think and immedietely start arguing against "Christian Culture". However, never had I said CHRISTIAN CULTURE, I have simply said christainity...the religion....that's it. Not the culture surrounding the religion, simply "the religion". I classify that as a "Cultural Nation" because that's what the definition of the type of nation that deals with things like language, religion, ethnicity, culture itself, etc as opposed to a Political Nation which is based off of a group ideology or value that leads towards a governmental structure.

    So your continual disproval of there being stronger cultural, as in the actual word cultural, bonds does not disprove the notion of a Christian Nation nor is it really event relevant to the discussion of one save for attempting to say those cultural bonds are strong enough to constitute a nation based on that culture. However even then, as I said, the existance of multiple nations within a state is not impossible. Indeed, I even acknowledged in my first post talking about nations that Relgion isn't even the largest and most wide spread "cultural" (in regards to the term cultural nation) bond within America, as that would be the common language.

  9. #39
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Actually, you proved neither.

    For a Cultural Nation to exist a significant grouping of people within a generalized location would need to have a common bond of some sort, with simply put a specific religion being one of those bonds. NOTHING you have shown, in any singular post you've made, proves that the fact that more than 3/4ths of the country self identifies as having the same religion is false. Without proving that false, you can not prove that over 3/4ths of the country has a shared religion. Without being able to prove that you can't state that it could not be considered a nation. You can argue that a portion of that grouping is a "weak" variety of that religion, but my counter is they still self identify as that religion so whether you think its "weak" or not still does not change the fact that its their religion, and that its a shared religion with the vast majority of hte country.

    And two, proving there are other potential nations that one could denote within the United States does not disprove the existance of other potential nations within it. Because the vast majority of the country speaks English does not mean that one could not identify within the United States any other "nation" simply due to the fact there's already one defined through language.

    The only argument you could possibly make is that a "Christian Nation" is not the largest designation one could make of the type of nation the US is, but that is different than arguing that it ISN'T one.

    You keep speaking of what you have "proved" tucker but you've proved nothing, save for what your opinion is. You've offered no proof to contradict my statements, simply opinions as to why you disagree and proof that mine isn't the only definable version....which is a fallacy of your own as I've never made the argument that the U.S. can ONLY be considered a Christian nation.
    False. Once you started using the term "baseline" and "foundation" you were making it the primary description. I've proven it is not the baseline or foundation with data.

    I am not the one who is only offering an opinion here. I'm the only one hwo has offered actual data. You have never once presented anything but your opinion. This whole time I've been asking for you to once, just once, offer some data to show that the baseline or foundation of the shared cultural bond is Christianity.

    You haven't. you've relied on multiple fallacies to argue for your opinion. Equivocation ("I don't mean culture, I mean culture" ) the package deal fallacy ("Since the majority labels themselves as Christians, that is our baseline cultural bond).

    Here's what you originally said:

    "Its reasonable to assume that likely close to 95%+ considered themselves some form of Christian at the time of the countries founding, with it still being more than 3/4ths of the country today considering itself as part of that faith. The overwhelming majority that represents Christians in this country makes it unmistakable to me that as a cultural nation the U.S. is without question a Christian Nation."

    Here's the same flawed argument (where everything is accurate) but with a different term instead of Christian:

    "Its reasonable to assume that likely close to 95%+ considered themselves white at the time of the countries founding, with it still being more than 3/4ths of the country today being part of that group. The overwhelming majority that represents whites in this country makes it unmistakable to me that as a cultural nation the U.S. is without question a white Nation."


    The truth is, you aren't even presenting an argument. You are stating your opinion and then backing that up with a fact that doesn't support that argument. I enlarged and bolded "cultural" in your claim to show that from the start, you've been using equivocation to defend your non-argument.

    When I focused on that term, which was extremely relevant to your claim, you said I was "harping" on it and that it was actually irrelevant to your claim. Of course, this was after you admitted you couldn't give any evidence of cultural uniformity amongst Christians.

    Because you couldn't support the claim in any way, you moved the goalposts to say that you meant the "baseline" (which is the "foundation") cultural bond was Christianity.

    I then showed evidence that proves that the foundation of our shared culture is not Christianity, it is Individualism.

    Then you move the goalposts again to point out "proving there are other potential nations that one could denote within the United States does not disprove the existance of other potential nations within it"

    I agree with that. I would even say that the Chrsitian nation of which you speak is, at best, a nation within the nation.

    The problem with that argument is that the Christian nation is, itself, a one of those nations within the US, but that does not comprise the whole of the US. Your own demographic data proves that it doesn't comprise the whole.

    So if we designate these potential smaller nations within the US as "subnations" of the US, your best argument is that the Christian nation is the largest subnation within the US, but that the US itself cannot be described as a Christian Nation because it is not a universally shared belief for the entire US as whole.

    Every time you move these goalposts, you are damaging your own argument.

    The "Super nation" that can be used toe describe the US as a whole is not the Christian nation. That is a sub-nation within that super-nation. The Super-nation can be described as an Individualistic one, but it cannot be described as a Christian one.


    Even though you want to call what I'm saying just my "opinion", it isn't "just" my opinion. It's not only supported by evidence, it's supported by your own words chosen in defense of your own claims.

    You have to look at it from the outside in. To make the claim that, as a cultural nation the US is _____ Culture, the thing that fills in the blank must comprise the whole of the US culturally. Not just the majority. If it only comprises the majority, it becomes a Nation within the nation, which you have already pointed out can exist.

    See, I'm not arguing that nations within nations can't exist. I'm arguing that Christian Nation is not the nation that comprises the cultural nation of the US.

    Even more to the point, using your own definition of Nation provided earlier:

    "its a grouping of individuals sharing some sort of common bond"

    The 'Christian nation" would encompass more than just the Christians in the US, but would also include Christians all over the globe.

    It would include every Christian in the US, but it wouldn't include the entire US because not everyone in the US shares that common bond.

    I'm not simply giving an opinion. I'm showing the flaws in your argument by targetting the ground-rules that you yourself set up.

    If you actually use that definition honestly, you will see that you can never make the claim that the Nation of people comprising the US is a Christian nation, because the grouping of individuals that comprise the entire US do not share that common bond of Christianity.

    Even takn to the simplest level of the common bond, your claim is demonstrably false.
    This means that the entire Christian nation has over 2 billion people.
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  10. #40
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You're issue tucker is a continued focus on the word "culture" in a literalistic sense in regards to the lifestyle, habits, and processes of people within a particular group.
    If it doesn't mean that, then your argument is founded on equivocation becuxse you are using culture as your definition of Nation.
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