View Poll Results: Is America a Christian nation?

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  • Yes

    8 12.70%
  • No

    39 61.90%
  • Yes and No

    15 23.81%
  • Other

    1 1.59%
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Thread: Is America a Christian Nation?

  1. #21
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I absolutely disagree. Just ask some people here who are Baptists/evangelical sorts if they think Catholicism is Christianity.

    I've heard many of them say that it isn't.
    I grew up for the first 12 years of my life as a Catholic with an extremely devout grandfather and spent the following 4 years going regularly to a southern baptist with my best friend and his extremely devout grandfather...and I never heard either grandparent, nor anyone at either of the churches, make a claim that the other denomination was anything other than Christian.

    Indeed, I've only heard that from an EXTREMELY minority of christians I've ever known, having heard it far, far, far more from people who consider themselves agnostic, athiest, or your Christian version of the "Self-hating jews" that likes to condemn most Christians while generally considering themself one.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    A nation is not a government per se, its a grouping of individuals sharing some sort of common bond...in regards to America my argument is the common bond is its generalized territory and religion. A state is a body of government with authority to rule.
    While this is true, that a nation, and a state are two different things, the layman shouting "This is a Christian Nation" isn't thinking about a group of people, that are Christians in America, but they are thinking that this country should incorporate Christian beliefs into law. With that type of wording I don't think there is enough distinction, that the government is secular, no matter what the common religion is. Though the fact that most people don't understand the difference between the term "nation", and "state" is probably a failure with the education system.

    Also this may be a little off-topic, but I don't think enough people realize that with time, and a change in ideology, that the people wanting religion to be incorporated into the government could very well be persecuted by that same precedent. All it takes is for the majority to change.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I absolutely disagree. Just ask some people here who are Baptists/evangelical sorts if they think Catholicism is Christianity.

    I've heard many of them say that it isn't.
    I have heard many Protestants say that Catholics aren't Christians and many Catholics would think they are the only true Christians. I do wonder what the majority of each group thinks. I tend to think most think "their way" is THE way and everyone else is wrong.


  4. #24
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I grew up for the first 12 years of my life as a Catholic with an extremely devout grandfather and spent the following 4 years going regularly to a southern baptist with my best friend and his extremely devout grandfather...and I never heard either grandparent, nor anyone at either of the churches, make a claim that the other denomination was anything other than Christian.

    Indeed, I've only heard that from an EXTREMELY minority of christians I've ever known, having heard it far, far, far more from people who consider themselves agnostic, athiest, or your Christian version of the "Self-hating jews" that likes to condemn most Christians while generally considering themself one.
    I've heard it more from extremist non-Catholic Christians than anyone else. For example, that Alfons guy is always saying that kind of stuff and I remember multiple people saying it at various points in the Religion forum.

    But my point is that similar religious beliefs aren't the same as a shared culture.

    Fro example: Black Baptists and Southern Baptists have an almost identical religious ideology, but they've got pretty widely varied cultures.
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I've heard it more from extremist non-Catholic Christians than anyone else. For example, that Alfons guy is always saying that kind of stuff and I remember multiple people saying it at various points in the Religion forum.

    But my point is that similar religious beliefs aren't the same as a shared culture.

    Fro example: Black Baptists and Southern Baptists have an almost identical religious ideology, but they've got pretty widely varied cultures.
    However the cultural bond of being "Christian", in believing in Jesus Christ is the son of god and their savior, is a coming binding linkage between the two regardless of the rest of the culture surrounding them.

    "Cultural" is the genre of nation, with "religion" being the common cultural theme...that religion being the christian baseline. That is not to say all the variations of their culture is the same. Its not, its saying that the base foundation is the same between the two.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    However the cultural bond of being "Christian", in believing in Jesus Christ is the son of god and their savior, is a coming binding linkage between the two regardless of the rest of the culture surrounding them.
    How many nominal Christians actually believe Jesus was the son of god and was the Savior? I happen to know a good number who call themselves Christian but remain fairly Agnostic about Jesus' divinity.

    Plus a single shared belief doesn't make for a shared culture. It just makes for a shared singular belief.

    "Cultural" is the genre of nation, with "religion" being the common cultural theme...that religion being the christian baseline. That is not to say all the variations of their culture is the same. Its not, its saying that the base foundation is the same between the two.
    I don't agree that Christianity is the baseline for most of the US subcultures.

    1. Most people who label themselves as Christian do not make that the basis of their overall beliefs, social practices and standards of behavior.

    2. It's one thing to say that the majority of people in a nation self-label themselves as Christian, but it's an entirely differnt thing to say that their culture is based on Christianity.

    If your claim is that the common cultural theme is religion (a highly dubious claim for our particular nation) and that Christianity is the baseline, you need to show that the shared beliefs, social practices and standards of behaviro are based on christianity.

    My stance is that this is false. My evidence for that is the fact that too large of a proprotion of the nation supports Abortion Rights and Homosexuality as well as many other things that are in direct contradiction to what one could legitimately call "Christian Culture".

    My contention is that claiming a majority of the country has a Christian Culture is both flawed and invovles logical fallacy such as "If one is Christian, one must have a Christian culture". That necessary premise for the claim is the fallacy of the "package Deal".
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  7. #27
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yes and no.

    There's two types of Nations technically speaking, the cultural and the political.

    Without a doubt America was a Christian Nation at the founding and continues to be one to this day. At the time of the founding the vast majority of the population shared a common cultural bond, that being the religion they shared which was at its based Christianity. This particular cultural lynchpin is second only to language, as the most constitant common bond amongst the majority of individuals within our generalized borders. From the earliest days till now there have been a large variety of ethnic backgrounds. While sharing a common history, the immigrant nature of our country makes this a slightly less concrete connection as well.

    Its reasonable to assume that likely close to 95%+ considered themselves some form of Christian at the time of the countries founding, with it still being more than 3/4ths of the country today considering itself as part of that faith. The overwhelming majority that represents Christians in this country makes it unmistakable to me that as a cultural nation the U.S. is without question a Christian Nation.

    I answered Yes and No however, because as a political nation we are joined not by the notion of Christianity but by the notion of governance by the people, for the people, with an understanding of an inherent right to freedom for individuals. The Delcaration of Independence was written on the notion that a political nation can establish its own right to rule. In some ways one could potentially argue its due to this reason that the U.S. is a Nation-State, though I don't quite know if the term would be appropriate for it. This is not to say that in this case it is a "secular" nation, as while freedom of religion in general was a portion of the initial make up of the country that notion did come after the true founding of the American NATION, coming into being truly during the time of the Constitution. Additionally, while not directly relating to a specific religion, the notion of divinity or of some sort of higher power is present throughout the founding documents and the arguments for independence and the formation of said political nation, so arguing that it is a secular nation even on the grounds of a political nation to me would be wrong. It would be however an argument that America is a nation of freedom.

    So to me, its two fold in how one could describe the U.S. as a nation.

    In regards to culture the United States is a Christian Nation, while with regards to politics the United States is a Nation of Freedom.

    Your thoughts?


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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    How many nominal Christians actually believe Jesus was the son of god and was the Savior? I happen to know a good number who call themselves Christian but remain fairly Agnostic about Jesus' divinity.

    Plus a single shared belief doesn't make for a shared culture. It just makes for a shared singular belief.



    I don't agree that Christianity is the baseline for most of the US subcultures.

    1. Most people who label themselves as Christian do not make that the basis of their overall beliefs, social practices and standards of behavior.

    2. It's one thing to say that the majority of people in a nation self-label themselves as Christian, but it's an entirely differnt thing to say that their culture is based on Christianity.

    If your claim is that the common cultural theme is religion (a highly dubious claim for our particular nation) and that Christianity is the baseline, you need to show that the shared beliefs, social practices and standards of behaviro are based on christianity.

    My stance is that this is false. My evidence for that is the fact that too large of a proprotion of the nation supports Abortion Rights and Homosexuality as well as many other things that are in direct contradiction to what one could legitimately call "Christian Culture".

    My contention is that claiming a majority of the country has a Christian Culture is both flawed and invovles logical fallacy such as "If one is Christian, one must have a Christian culture". That necessary premise for the claim is the fallacy of the "package Deal".

    At first I was prepared to get annoyed with you, but I thought about some of that a bit longer and you have a point.

    Frankly about half of those who self-identify as "Christian" might best be described as "Christian Lite": That is, they're Christian on Sunday Morning and maybe give the Big Ten Do's and Don't a moment's thought now and then, but otherwise their religious beliefs don't really impact their life or their political views all that much.

    So yeah, while I maintain that Christianity is a major influence in the US, the culture as a whole is not nearly as "Christian" as you might think from looking at raw numbers.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    In regards to culture the United States is a Christian Nation, while with regards to politics the United States is a Nation of Freedom.
    I think any amount of time I've spent on the internet has proven how un-Christian the U.S. is culturally.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    How many nominal Christians actually believe Jesus was the son of god and was the Savior? I happen to know a good number who call themselves Christian but remain fairly Agnostic about Jesus' divinity.

    Plus a single shared belief doesn't make for a shared culture. It just makes for a shared singular belief.



    I don't agree that Christianity is the baseline for most of the US subcultures.

    1. Most people who label themselves as Christian do not make that the basis of their overall beliefs, social practices and standards of behavior.

    2. It's one thing to say that the majority of people in a nation self-label themselves as Christian, but it's an entirely differnt thing to say that their culture is based on Christianity.

    If your claim is that the common cultural theme is religion (a highly dubious claim for our particular nation) and that Christianity is the baseline, you need to show that the shared beliefs, social practices and standards of behaviro are based on christianity.

    My stance is that this is false. My evidence for that is the fact that too large of a proprotion of the nation supports Abortion Rights and Homosexuality as well as many other things that are in direct contradiction to what one could legitimately call "Christian Culture".

    My contention is that claiming a majority of the country has a Christian Culture is both flawed and invovles logical fallacy such as "If one is Christian, one must have a Christian culture". That necessary premise for the claim is the fallacy of the "package Deal".
    I can't truly make an argument, because you're arguing onto semantics, attempting to cut to the micro notion of it when what I am speaking of is a far more macro comment. You're focusing on the word "culture" and extrapolating far more meaning and far more merit to its use than is actually used here or is being stated. Culture, primarily, is being used as the designation of two separate definitions of nation...one of which is called cultural, the other is called political...not as the actual micro notion of culture which you continually harp on. Indeed, a shared "culture" in and of itself is one way in which a cultural nation can be defined. However simply sharing a common baseline religion is another way.

    While many in the U.S. may be "Christians Lite", may not be the most devout, may be of various denominations, at its base it is absolutely, without question, impossible to argue that over 75% of the country does not consider itself Christian. Rather you think they're "Real Christians", whether you think they're practicing Christians, whether you think they're Christians in name only, is all irrelevant to the fact that over 75% of the country considers itself Christian and thus has a shared religion. Now you COULD argue that it is not worth while enough to consider it a designation for a nation because a portion of that is weak, however you can not make the argument that they're not really Christian because ultimately that's not for YOU to decide for someone else, its for them to decide, and over 75% have decided they classify themselves as Christian.

    It doesn't matter if every single solitary one of them have a different Christian CULTURE, because the common bond in this cultural nation is NOT "culture" but "religion", which in this case is "Christianity".

    You are harping on what is essentially an irrelevant word for my argument.

    This was likely my mistake in speaking about a "Cultural Bond" in reference to being a Bond needed for a cultural nation designation more than a legitimate shared "Culture" as in very defined and set common attitudes, values, goals, and practices.

    As a general baseline, I simply have not seen a single reasonable or realistic argument for you to honestly say that every person who considers themselves Christian does not have some base feature with regards to religion in common amongst each other. Then again, I honestly don't understand how one can seriously make any kind of legitimate rational argument attempting to be suggest somehow Baptists and Catholics are entirely and completely separate religions, on the same scale that Judaism is a different religion as Islam or Wicca is different than Hinduism or Zoroastrianism is different than Taoism. That in and of itself is suggesting that "Christianity" doesn't actually exist as a religion, though by that definition Judaism and Islam don't actually exist because they have various denominations and sects as well.

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