View Poll Results: Is America a Christian nation?

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Thread: Is America a Christian Nation?

  1. #191
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Second, if one repents/asks for forgiveness/etc and strives to not sin but still remains making greedy acts that does not make them pagan. Yes, someone that fully embraces greed, has no issue with greed, completely and utterly indulges in it with no attempt for forgiveness from god nor attempt to not forgo these things, then you may be able to make an argument. However I think you'd be hard pressed to say that most of the self identifying Christians in this country would make up that kind of thing. Again, nothing you've given proves that somehow being sinful, having issues with greed, makes on not a Christian. Yes, a case could be made for those who are greedy, continually and without remorse or absolution, but a far tougher case would be in suggesting that a significant portion of Christians in this country could be considered "Greedy".

    Even one who has performed adultery could, to my understanding, still be christian if they ask for forgiveness and strive not to continue that sin.

    Throwing out random singular lines out of a book thousands of pages long, specifically lines that don't even claim what you're claiming which is that someone who sins is NOT CHRISTIAN, proves nothing other than your attempt to cherry pick passages that show being greedy is bad or those who are "wicked", which generally to my understanding is those who continually engage in sinful acts without any attempt to find savior in christ or to change their ways, wouldn't inherit the kingdom of god. Indeed, the Colossians 3:5 you quote even suggests that simply the act of greed does not make one non-christian for one can "put to death" those sinful things, suggesting that while they may reside there and have happened as long as one continues to fight against the notion one would be okay.
    Translation: I don't know that much about Christianity or the values taught by Christ, but I sure as hell know we're a Christian nation. Whatever that means.

    Our values, as a nation, are not reflective of the teachings of Christ. I don't really give a rat's ass what people call themselves, the average Christian church in the U.S. wouldn't even recognize Christ (that f'ing commie) if he walked through the door.

  2. #192
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Zyph, I think I've figured out a better way to explain what my issue with description is.

    The question is asking if America is a Christian nation.
    Tuck, I get your point and I'm thinking on my view of what qualifies a nation and our disagreement with regards to the necessity for 100% involvement to get it.

    However, to your point, I've actually clarified that routinely.

    I believe that "America" can describe both the country (the geographical territory), the population within it (as I've said, essentially an "American" nation is the sort of umbrella nation, as every American through being a citizen shares a common history and to a point culture), and the state itself (The American Government).

    So I think the designation could apply to all three things honestly....the Country of America, the Nation of America, and the State of America. Each specifically speaking to the territory, the people, and the government. By stating simply "America" without going any further (IE America is a blank nation, America's government is, I'm going to America tomorrow, etc) you essentially are speaking of the three as a combined entity.

    And yes I'm realizing I'm being inconsistant and lazy with my common vernacular here by going "America" when in reality it should be "The United States of America" instead of short hand "America"

  3. #193
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Translation: I don't know that much about Christianity or the values taught by Christ, but I sure as hell know we're a Christian nation. Whatever that means.

    Our values, as a nation, are not reflective of the teachings of Christ. I don't really give a rat's ass what people call themselves, the average Christian church in the U.S. wouldn't even recognize Christ (that f'ing commie) if he walked through the door.
    Translation: I don't want to bother reading the thread, because Zyphlin has repeatedly explained "What that means" in regards to his interpritation of it but I'm not going to bother with that so make a flippant comment.

    Sorry Catz, not going to rego over arguments because you're not willing to read a thread. In regards to the weak values of Christians in this country that's already been addressed.

  4. #194
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    [Jerry]Well, what you've been arguing is that Apples are invisible gremlins from outer space and that when Monkeys have propeller hats on they will suffer from vaginosis.

    This isn't true because apples aren't gremlins and propeller hats have no bearing on vaginosis.

    Therefore, America is a Christian Nation[/Jerry]

    Damn those invisible gremlins!!

  5. #195
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Tuck, I get your point and I'm thinking on my view of what qualifies a nation and our disagreement with regards to the necessity for 100% involvement to get it.

    However, to your point, I've actually clarified that routinely.

    I believe that "America" can describe both the country (the geographical territory), the population within it (as I've said, essentially an "American" nation is the sort of umbrella nation, as every American through being a citizen shares a common history and to a point culture), and the state itself (The American Government).

    So I think the designation could apply to all three things honestly....the Country of America, the Nation of America, and the State of America. Each specifically speaking to the territory, the people, and the government. By stating simply "America" without going any further (IE America is a blank nation, America's government is, I'm going to America tomorrow, etc) you essentially are speaking of the three as a combined entity.

    And yes I'm realizing I'm being inconsistant and lazy with my common vernacular here by going "America" when in reality it should be "The United States of America" instead of short hand "America"
    I think my confusion is based on the ambiguity between America (as in the USA) being a Nation-State when it is discussed here as a "nation".

    While you are clarifying that you are talking about the "cultural" entity that is the population of the US, that concept becoems clouded when applied to "America".

    To use an example that might clarify what I'm getting at:

    The United Kingdom is similar to the US in that it has multiple semi-sovereign entities that make it up. England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

    Does the UK even qualify as a "nation"?

    I don't think it does. I think Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland are all their own nations. if anything.

    To me, it seems that the US is just a much bigger version of this. We've got 50 entities that can be considered similar to Wales, Scotland and such.

    In both instances, these entities are under the umbrella of a larger entity which unites them. Hence the "United" in their names.

    An important thing to note is that these entities all have their own histories, which are different from the history of the country as a whole (37 of them weren't even a part of the country when it was formed), as well as their own cultures (not many people would disagree that the differences between the general cultures in Texas and California are at least as different from the general cultures Wales and England are).

    This was what I was getting at in this thread when I initially said that the US is too diverse. Granted, I'm not just talking about the cultures themselves, but that's definitely a part of it when discussing "nations" in general.

    In general, I don't really believe that there is a legitimate "nation" that can be called "America" (either as a nation-state or as cultural nation).

    I don't think it was intended to be homogeneous. It was meant to be a hodge-podge of different semi-sovereign entities, much like the UK is.

    Granted, one could easily see how my "anti-federalist" philosophies relates to opposing the idea of a US nation. But I think my views are actually a product of my observing this lack of commonality across the entire country which leads me to believe that we aren't really a nation and that many of our problems stem from the fact that we try to pretend to be one.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-08-10 at 02:02 PM.
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  6. #196
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    I think its difficult to really compare it to the UK. Am I wrong in understanding that at a point many of the various portions of the UK had functioned as their own entity seperate from the UK? This isn't really the case with most of the states which have pretty much always functioned as a subset of the United States.

  7. #197
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Also, I'd need to take some time and look at "Nation-State". I've heard arguments suggesting both that the US is and isn't a "nation-state" and I'm unsure of my own view on it.

  8. #198
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This isn't really the case with most of the states which have pretty much always functioned as a subset of the United States.
    This isn't necessarily true. Texas was a Republic before becoming a state. As was California. Hawaii was it's own kingdom. Alaska was owned by Russia before becoming a territory. Louisiana owned by France. Florida by spain. Arizona and other Southwestern states were owned by Mexico etc. etc.

    Then, these states were territories, much like Puerto Rico or Guam.

    I'm guessing that when you talk about the "nation" that is th eUS, you aren't including Puerto Rico and Guam in the equation.

    Thus, I can't see how you can possibly say that most of the states have "pretty much always functioned as a subset of the United States".

    Would the same be true of Puerto Rico?
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    This isn't necessarily true. Texas was a Republic before becoming a state. As was California. Hawaii was it's own kingdom. Alaska was owned by Russia before becoming a territory. Louisiana owned by France. Florida by spain. Arizona and other Southwestern states were owned by Mexico etc. etc.

    Then, these states were territories, much like Puerto Rico or Guam.

    I'm guessing that when you talk about the "nation" that is th eUS, you aren't including Puerto Rico and Guam in the equation.

    Thus, I can't see how you can possibly say that most of the states have "pretty much always functioned as a subset of the United States".

    Would the same be true of Puerto Rico?
    Yeah, I would not consider territories in that honeslty. And you did highlight some examples that hit me after the post I made. At the same time the extent and the amount of time these places existed independently prior to incorporation into the U.S. seems to be less so than what you have in the UK, not to mention the far vaster majority of it not being the case, instead simply land owned by other countries rather than their own entities.

    I'm not saying you're wrong in suggesting that the U.S. is a subset of things, however I think your analogy to the UK is a weak one due to the far stronger individuality both realistically and historically some of the places included in it has compared to the U.S. not to mention the far, far stronger centralization of the U.S. compared to the UK.

    In pushing this I truly do think your personal anti-federalist views shade the way you view this particular situation.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Yeah, I would not consider territories in that honeslty. And you did highlight some examples that hit me after the post I made. At the same time the extent and the amount of time these places existed independently prior to incorporation into the U.S. seems to be less so than what you have in the UK, not to mention the far vaster majority of it not being the case, instead simply land owned by other countries rather than their own entities.
    True. The history of those countries is longer than almost all of the US (the only potential exception being Hawaii due to it's large native population still residing there)

    I'm not saying you're wrong in suggesting that the U.S. is a subset of things, however I think your analogy to the UK is a weak one due to the far stronger individuality both realistically and historically some of the places included in it has compared to the U.S. not to mention the far, far stronger centralization of the U.S. compared to the UK.
    I think that if one views it historically, the countries that manke up the UK have at various times been more "centralized" than the US. Teh bigger difference is the lentgh of existence as fully independent sovereignties and that over the past 100 years or so, the US has moved further and further away form State Sovereignty.

    In pushing this I truly do think your personal anti-federalist views shade the way you view this particular situation.
    I'd say the direction of the influence is a two-way thing. My anti-federalist views actually stem from my belief that the US is not culturally uniform and that the centralized approach to government ignores this, which leads to problems, corruption and political disenfranchisement.

    But at the same time, I cannot deny that I'm definitely going to be inclined toward thinking that there is no real "US Nation" based on the same premises which led to my anti-federalist philosophy.

    Essentially, I reject the "common knowledge" argument that leads to the presumption that the US is, in fact, a single nation. I would require evidence that would indicate that it can be considered such. Showing that 3/4 of the population is Christian doesn't come close to that.

    ****, the continent South America is 90% Christian, more than 50% of which speak Spanish as their primary language (Aside from being the most common first language, it's also the most common second and third language in South America).

    If we use just the definition from before, and focus on just shared language and religion and ignore politics, it's as reasonable to call South America (minus Brazil, Suriname, Guyana and French Guiana) a Spanish speaking Catholic Nation. Since Spanish is the "second" language in Brazil, you could even potentially include Brazil in that mix since most Brazilians speak Spanish as well as Portuguese.

    And while we're at it, why not include the English speaking parts of Canada in the "nation" that includes the US? where are the lines divided? Especially when politics are removed from the equation (as per the parameters from the get go).
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-08-10 at 07:36 PM.
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