View Poll Results: Is America a Christian nation?

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Thread: Is America a Christian Nation?

  1. #121
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'd say our state religion is actually materialism, and our national deity is mammon, if we want to be brutally honest.
    Thank you for your brutally honesty.

    Whose talking about a state religion?

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Thank you for your brutally honesty.

    Whose talking about a state religion?
    In light of the above, I'd suggest that America is a PAGAN nation, not a Christian one. Our values/behaviors reflect consumerism and greed, not christianity.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    In order to bring a contradiction to my attention, you have to actually show that a contradiction is present. You making a claim without substantiating it isn't showing anything except that you can make a claim without substantiating it.
    Oh no, I stopped trying to force the horse to drink long ago.

  4. #124
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So wait...

    Now you're arguing that you can't have nations that are specific to a specific geographical area? Or that if anyone outside of the geographical area that's defined is shares the same common bond that it invalidates the notion of a nation?
    No. I'm saying that if it is limited to a geographical region, it must be shared by all people within that geographical region.

    I'm also saying that if a trait is being used to define a nation that isn't limited to that geographical region, nor is it universally present within that region, it cannot be used to describe that region on it's own.

    So if there's anywhere else in the world where people believe in having a Republican form of law then you can't actually call America a Republican Nation because there's someone else outside of that border that follows it so they're just part of a larger nation. If anyone ANYWHERE else believes in individual freedom then you can't considered America a Nation of Individualists because peopel exist outside of that. If anyone happened to be from America but is no longer a citizen of the country while still holding the history and culture of the country as a formative portion of their life and something they still consider part of their history then it invalidates the notion of America as a Nation because people outside of the country can share in that nation and therefore invalidates calling it an American nation because its one that stretches the world.
    If the entirety of the US has a Republican form of government, then Republican can be used to desribe the geographical region that is the US because all mebers of the population within that region are republicans. They share that trait as well as being confined in thatgeographical region universally.



    Where are you getting this notion that somehow you can not speak about a specific population within a confined location when speaking about a Nation? Nothing says the "population" that is being defined MUST be the ENTIRE WORLD.
    And I mentioned that it doesn't need to be the entire world. Adding extra limitations on the nation is possible, even geographic limitations.

    But all of the people within the nation must share any trait that is being used to describe that nation.

    It's based on what sharing is. If we have a group of 3 people, and two of them share a hotdog by cutting it in half, those two people shared a hotdog. It would be innacurate to say that those three people shared a hotdog because the third person was not involved. 66% perscent of that population shared a hotdog, but the population as a whole did not share the hotdog.

    It could be 4 people and with 3 of them sharing the hotdog and it remains true that saying "those four people shared a hotdog" is inaccurate. If a nation involves sharing something, it has to include the entire population.

    Indeed, once more you destroy your own argument by your own requirements that you set down in order to disprove other peoples arguments. If the existance of someone that shares that bond outside of the geographical area of the United States makes it impossible for the United States to be considered an "X" nation then there is, once again, little to no nations that can be defined as "American" as it is likely neigh impossible to find ANYTHING that you could use to define that nation that is not held by someone, somewhere, elsewhere in the world.
    I didn't destroy my argument because I didn't say those things.

    I pointed ou tthat geographical limitations can occur:

    If we priovide geographical limitations, then we need to look at all the people within that geographical region and the characteristics shared by them all. For example, the US. Not every one in the US speaks english, so the population (nation) of people that is contained within the borders of the US cannot be described an English speaking nation. They are not all Christian, so they cannot be described as a Christian nation. The nation that is contained within those bounrdaries can only be described by shared characteristics. Not predominant characteristics. It must be 100% if it isn't 100%, it isn't actually shared by the nation as a whole.
    As I noted above, the sharing of the hotdog can be a predominant characte4ristic of the majority of the group, but it is false to use that term to describe the group as a whole.

    In order to use a term to describe a nation, that term must be shared by the population of that nation. If we are discussing the overall Christian nation, it is larger than the US. It also does not fully encompass the US. That's the Key to the discussion. If it did fully encompass the population ofthe US, we could be described as a "Christian nation" free from qualifiers.

    Now, the thing is, one could describe the US as a predominantly Christian Nation. That qualifier allows for accuracy in the decription. Removing that qualifier is both misleading and inaccurate.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 07-07-10 at 03:57 PM.
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  5. #125
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh no, I stopped trying to force the horse to drink long ago.
    Apparently you stopped bringing it to the water too.
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  6. #126
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    In light of the above, I'd suggest that America is a PAGAN nation, not a Christian one. Our values/behaviors reflect consumerism and greed, not christianity.
    So what would make that Pagan? Would that not just be a Materialistic Nation? Are you not just trying totrying to piss off and **** on religious people by making a reach by declaring it "pagan" rather than actually term it appropriately for what you're describing. What religion is consumerism? What religion is greed? Where in the bible does it say that you exhibit greed you're somehow not a Christian but a Pagan? Your choice of pagan seems to be nothing but a non sequiter designed to flip off Christians rather than actually contribute to the discussion, which is sad as your latter argument is not a poor one.

  7. #127
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No. I'm saying that if it is limited to a geographical region, it must be shared by all people within that geographical region.
    So nations are either a grouping of people within the entire world to you, or every person within a specific geographic region.

    So your earlier claims that the United States was an Individualist Nation...you're suggesting that EVERY American holds individualistic values and principles in regards to their lives and their government or are you retracting your defining of America as an Individualistic Nation?

    I'm also saying that if a trait is being used to define a nation that isn't limited to that geographical region, nor is it universally present within that region, it cannot be used to describe that region on it's own.
    As above. Individualism isn't limited to just America, and I believe it would be impossible to say that every person in the country subscribes to the notion of individualist philosophy in regards to life and governance, so do you retract your previous designation of the America nation based on your own definition?

    If the entirety of the US has a Republican form of government, then Republican can be used to desribe the geographical region that is the US because all mebers of the population within that region are republicans. They share that trait as well as being confined in thatgeographical region universally.
    Except for Republican GOVERNMENT is not the same as a shared belief that Republican form of Government is the best and proper form of government. One can live within America and despise the notion of a Republican government, be against the form of government, refrain from activity in such a form of government, work to overturn such a government foundation, and reject the notion that it is the kind of government we should have. We would be a Republican STATE, because some individual not liking it doesn't change what the government is, but by your own definition we could not be a Republican Nation because not everyone in the nation subscribes to that belief system and its not exclusive to our geographical location.

    It's based on what sharing is. If we have a group of 3 people, and two of them share a hotdog by cutting it in half, those two people shared a hotdog. It would be innacurate to say that those three people shared a hotdog because the third person was not involved. 66% perscent of that population shared a hotdog, but the population as a whole did not share the hotdog.

    It could be 4 people and with 3 of them sharing the hotdog and it remains true that saying "those four people shared a hotdog" is inaccurate. If a nation involves sharing something, it has to include the entire population.
    This happens routinely though. Are you suggesting we do not group people together even such a isolated incident as you're talking about unless everyone in it? If I'm inviting a family over and I ask "Are you family hot dog eaters" and 7 of the 9 members of their family eat hot dogs it would not be uncommon for them to say "yes, we are" because in general they are. When I've described my group of friends from back home before I've described us as a "laid back group" despite the fact we have a few guys in the group that are relatively high strung and usually a bit hyper, but for the most part we're laid back and thus the atmosphere produced is as such. As I've said before, this is a difference of what one considers required to make a generalized declaration about a group of people. You require 100% participation, I do not. Yours isn't any more correct or right just because its what you do. I'm not saying yours is invalid, I'm saying yours isn't any more valid then mine. For you, a grouping must be 100% pure for it to be called something. For me, if a super majority of the group fulfills the role then the group as a whole can be considered that role when speaking of it as a group and not as individuals.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    No. I'm saying that if it is limited to a geographical region, it must be shared by all people within that geographical region.
    Negative. No where, in any manor, is that an established requirement. These are general descriptions, not absolute universal attributes.

    I'm sure there were various student groups in your collage. We had one for women, and it was known as a woman's group, even though it had a few men. We had a 'native American group, and it was known as a native American group, even though it had few non-'native members. Same thing.

    The rest of your post is a reiteration of that wrong assumption, so while I read it I see no constructive purpose in responding to it.
    Last edited by Jerry; 07-07-10 at 04:12 PM.

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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Apparently you stopped bringing it to the water too.
    The problem is you're not telling us where you're getting these requirements from. You're just claiming they're true without substantiation.

    Who said a description had to be universal in order to apply?

  10. #130
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    Re: Is America a Christian Nation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So nations are either a grouping of people within the entire world to you, or every person within a specific geographic region.

    So your earlier claims that the United States was an Individualist Nation...you're suggesting that EVERY American holds individualistic values and principles in regards to their lives and their government or are you retracting your defining of America as an Individualistic Nation?
    Yes, I shouldn't have said that America was an individualistic nation. I was making an argument in refutation of your attempts to claim we were a Christian nation due to "Christianity being the baseline common bond" by showing that the foundational bond of American Culture isn't Christianity, but individualism. That alone doesn't make us a Individualistic nation, though. We are an almost entirely Individualistic Nation, though. I failed to put in that qualifier before.



    As above. Individualism isn't limited to just America, and I believe it would be impossible to say that every person in the country subscribes to the notion of individualist philosophy in regards to life and governance, so do you retract your previous designation of the America nation based on your own definition?
    As I noted above, I made a mistake to call America an Individualistic nation. It actually contradicted my initial posts in this thread, where I said the country was to expansive and diverse to have a single culture.

    except for Republican GOVERNMENT is not the same as a shared belief that Republican form of Government is the best and proper form of government. One can live within America and despise the notion of a Republican government, be against the form of government, refrain from activity in such a form of government, work to overturn such a government foundation, and reject the notion that it is the kind of government we should have. We would be a Republican STATE, because some individual not liking it doesn't change what the government is, but by your own definition we could not be a Republican Nation because not everyone in the nation subscribes to that belief system and its not exclusive to our geographical location.
    Ah, but if one lives in a communist state and believes in democracy, it doesn't negate the fact that while they are living in that state, they are engaging in communism.



    This happens routinely though. Are you suggesting we do not group people together even such a isolated incident as you're talking about unless everyone in it? If I'm inviting a family over and I ask "Are you family hot dog eaters" and 7 of the 9 members of their family eat hot dogs it would not be uncommon for them to say "yes, we are" because in general they are. When I've described my group of friends from back home before I've described us as a "laid back group" despite the fact we have a few guys in the group that are relatively high strung and usually a bit hyper, but for the most part we're laid back and thus the atmosphere produced is as such. As I've said before, this is a difference of what one considers required to make a generalized declaration about a group of people. You require 100% participation, I do not. Yours isn't any more correct or right just because its what you do. I'm not saying yours is invalid, I'm saying yours isn't any more valid then mine. For you, a grouping must be 100% pure for it to be called something. For me, if a super majority of the group fulfills the role then the group as a whole can be considered that role when speaking of it as a group and not as individuals.
    The fact that it happens routinely does not make it accurate. On one hand, you are trying to avoid colloquial misuse of a term (nation to mean political state), but on the other hand, you are defending colloquial misuse of a term.

    It's the fallacy of composition. Just because something is true of some or many of the parts, does nto mean it is true of the whole. If we are discussing a group, the only terms that can be used to accurately describe that group are terms that are true for all individuals in that group.

    The degree of the majority doesn't matter when it comes to accuracy. If I have a group 19 white people, and one black person and I say "this is a group of white people", I'm always wrong.

    That statement will never be accurate because it is not a group of white people. It's a group that is mostly white people, sure, but it isn't a group of white people.
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