Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

TurtleDude said:

May Allah praise you and may your name be blessed among the faithful:mrgreen:

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I thought it already was.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I thought it already was.

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Only among the shiites:2razz:

turtledude said:

only among the shiites:2razz:

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One stupid letter and I'd have everything I always wanted.

Sean_H said:

Wow you found a quote, I can do that too.
Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians a website full of them with information and sources. Long and short, I don't want to know the religion of someone running for public office and religion has no place in politics, this was the view of the founders, this is the view of people who think freely.

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In a way you admit that your sources are rather limiting. Aside from the fact that some of those individuals were more supporting of religion than the website gives off, quoting less than a dozen men does injustice to the wide variety of religious viewpoints they held. My own relatives, one being a signer of the Declaration of Independence, his son serving as a cabinet member of the Washington and Adams' administration were quite prideful of their Christian sect. The former admitted that he did not want religious tests being performed for government office, but believed optimistically that liberty in the land was so prevalent that they did not need the outright declaration of no religious tests. Nonetheless, he thus supported the measure anyhow.

Here is one of his writings.

"Through various scenes of life, God has sustained me. May He ever be my unfailing friend; may His love cherish my soul; may my heart with gratitude acknowledge His goodness; and may my desires be to Him and to the rememberence of His name … May we then turn our eyes to the bright objects above, and may God give us strength to travel the upward road. May the Divine Redeemer conduct us to that seat of bliss which He himself has prepared for His friends; at the approach of which every sorrow shall vanish from the human heart and endless scenes of glory open upon the enraptured eye. There our love to God and each other will grow stronger, and our pleasures never be dampened by the fear of future separation. How indifferent will it then be to us whether we obtained felicity by travailing the thorny or the agreeable paths of life – whether we arrived at our rest by passing through the envied and unfragrant road of greatness or sustained hardship and unmerited reproach in our journey. God’s Providence and support through the perilous and perplexing labyrinths of human life will then forever excite our astonishment and love. May a happiness be granted to those I most tenderly love, which shall continue and increase through an endless existence. Your cares and burdens must be many and great, but put your trust in that God Who has hitherto supported you and me; He will not fail to take care of those who put their trust in Him … It is most evident that this land is under the protection of the Almighty, and that we shall be saved not by our wisdom nor by our might, but by the Lord of Host’s Who is wonderful in counsel and Almighty in all His operations.” – Oliver Wolcott – Letters of Delegates to Congress: January 1, 1776 – May 15, 1776, Paul H. Smith, editor (Washington D.C.: Library of Congress, 1978), Vol. 3, pp. 502-503, Oliver Wolcott to Laura Wolcott on April 10, 1776.

Sean_H said:

The important thing to note is that the founder's religion isn't even important.

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and so you beat a retreat. the Founders repeatedly claimed that religious values were - in fact - the cornerstone of the nation they were trying to build. even Franklin (self-professed Deist) said that having a bible in every home was a necessary defense against tyranny.

Our laws are not based on christian values, the only example anyone has given are the commandments and saying that our laws are based on the ten commandments is so stupid it's unreal.

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i would again give you John Adams: Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

I will say again, religion has no place in politics, and I would even go so far as to say that it has no place at all.

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the founding fathers disagreed.

roguenuke said:

Actually, you are vastly overgeneralizing much of Genesis and not correct in other aspects.

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i'm going with a rough outline, certainly. Adam, you will note, makes no individual entrance. the point isn't that Genesis is an exacting account of the degree of accuracy that we would demand from modern science - it's that it's an exacting account of the degree of accuracy we would expect from a nomadic culture in the 10th Century BC. compared to any other creation myth, the Genesis account remains eerily accurate.

Andrew Parker does a much better job of walking through this as a biologist with a specialty in evolutionary history; but he himself is agnostic, so i'm not sure i would take his spiritual musings.

In fact, it sounds quite egotistic of us to assume that God made everything just for us.

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perhaps so indeed; yet it keeps cropping up that way. the universe seems incredibly fine-tuned for the purpose of supporting life. scientists call it the anthropic principle.

The anthropic principle argues that observations on a universe must be compatible with the conscious life that observes it. Some actually reason that this explains why the universe is so old as it is, and has the constants necessary to accommodate conscious life. Essentially they believe that the fact that the universe's observed basic constants are within the narrow range thought to allow life is not remarkable.
In short, if it were not as it is, we would either not exist, or would have evolved differently. The anthropic principle does not support the God idea.

BCR said:

I hear all the time that "this is a Christian Nation". Do you think this is so.

I am going to go ahead and say anyone who truly thinks this country was meant to be a Christian nation is a complete moron. The founding fathers were secularist, there is some evidence indicating Thomas Jefferson was at least agnostic.

" The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson

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I thought I threw my 2 cents in the mix of this thread already but I couldnt find it and I certainly didnt vote yet so I guess Ill do it now and answer the three questions.

"Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?"
Of course not, that is just silly and I cant believe anybody would ask that or its even a questin, that would go against what america is.

"Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?"
Yes parts of it were founded WITH Christianity but certainly not entirely and certainly not upon. There were other religions/beliefs that went into our founding and one of the most important was religious FREEDOM

"I hear people say we are a Christian Nation, Do you think this is so?"
again of course not because it isnt so. Why would anybody every think that? We are not, never will and never will be, this again would go against america and simply isnt true


now on a side note, unless we are talking about a very very general definition of nation its not true.

People typically have a view of what a nation is but text book wise could be very general, ill have to look it up. It may say group of common/majority people LOL

and I guess if thats all one needs then you could make the argument but then you could also say we are a
a white nation, or female nation since those are also majority but yes, those sond dumb to me too

anyway basically the answers are no, parts of, and no anything else is people believing what they WISH, HOPE or WANT to be true but it simply isnt.

cpwill said:

an interesting claim. the only self-proclaimed Deist i'm aware of among the Founding Fathers was Benjamin Franklin. Jefferson probably was as well intellectually, but he worshipped at Christian services, and certainly had no problem with public expressions of faith in the Divine.

perhaps you could cite for us the numbers of this "majority" of Founding Fathers who were deists?

as for this notion:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
-John Adams

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Well, since we're quoting Adams, he of the Almost Took Down The Country Adamses, hows this bit of history?

John Adams saw himself as a rational Christian, a term Unitarians often used to describe themselves, and proudly identified his ministers as Unitarians. He decried “Athanasianism,” referring to orthodox Christian Trinitarianism, which asserts the incarnation and deity of Christ, and he urged Thomas Jefferson not to hire European professors at the University of Virginia because "They are all infected with Episcopal and Presbyterian creeds, and confessions of faith....And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."

http://www.opposingviews.com/counters/but-wait-there-s-more

We should also let it be known that Franklin was quite pleased when religious leaders stressed the importance of helping their fellow man and their communities as a whole. He would attend these religious ceremonies and contribute funds. If they deviated from his preferences he would no longer attend the services nor would he contribute to their funds.

I think, if my reading of his autobiography was correct, religion could be properly utilized for the City if it was truly interested in helping the City. If it really tried to separate itself from the good of the community, what practical use was it?

Kev316 said:

Well, since we're quoting Adams, he of the Almost Took Down The Country Adamses, hows this bit of history?

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almost took down the country? that's a mighty big claim; i'd love to see you wander over to the history threads and try to back it up.

but we can stick with Adams if you like. he also wrote the 1780 Massachusetts Constitution:

[the] good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend(s) upon piety, religion, and morality... by the institution of public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality

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North Carolina was a bit more specific:

No person who shall deny the being of God, or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority of either the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State (e.g. pacifism), shall be capable of holding any office, place of trust or profit, in the civil department, within this State

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at the time of ratification of the Federal Constitution; 10 of the 13 states had some provision recognizing Christianity as the official or recommended religion in their State Constitutions. Several ran state churches.

the notion of a secular public square simply wasn't part of the Founders worldview. the most commonly referenced source in their political writings was the Bible (the study i saw referenced gave it 34% of all citations). indeed, they saw the widespread belief in God as the author of our rights as the necessary underpinning of our entire system of governance. even Jefferson (no modern bible thumper, he):

Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?

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cpwill said:

i'm going with a rough outline, certainly. Adam, you will note, makes no individual entrance. the point isn't that Genesis is an exacting account of the degree of accuracy that we would demand from modern science - it's that it's an exacting account of the degree of accuracy we would expect from a nomadic culture in the 10th Century BC. compared to any other creation myth, the Genesis account remains eerily accurate.

Andrew Parker does a much better job of walking through this as a biologist with a specialty in evolutionary history; but he himself is agnostic, so i'm not sure i would take his spiritual musings.



perhaps so indeed; yet it keeps cropping up that way. the universe seems incredibly fine-tuned for the purpose of supporting life. scientists call it the anthropic principle.

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As something of a Biblical historian, I have been enjoying your posts. Most modern Bible experts have placed Genesis 1--the first creation story--as one of the latest of Old Testament documents most likley written during the disapora period - probably late sixth century or possibly even a bit later. This would have put it very close to the culture of early scientific thought that gave us Socrates, Plato, Xenophon, Aristophanes, and ultimately Aristotle. However, while the first chapter of Genesis was not exactly produced in a scientific vacuum, it was not intended to be scientific but rather was a pure doctrinal statement to illustrate that all that was, is, or will ever be comes from God. The second chapter of Genesis was one of the earliest manuscripts included in what we call the Old Testament.

None of this, however, addresses the question of whether the country was founded on Christian principles, but I have always held to concept that one cannot fully understand or appreciate the New Testament without a good grounding in the Old Testament as all the writers of the New Testament well knew and took the content of the Old Testament for granted and assumed their readers did so also. And so did the Founders in their Christian beliefs see that all that was, is, and will be comes from God, and founded this country on that belief and therefore the unalienable rights given by God would not be infringed.

BCR said:

I hear all the time that "this is a Christian Nation". Do you think this is so.

I am going to go ahead and say anyone who truly thinks this country was meant to be a Christian nation is a complete moron. The founding fathers were secularist, there is some evidence indicating Thomas Jefferson was at least agnostic.

" The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson

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This nation was founded on Christian values and people that held those values. The founders also saw the dangers of a theocracy so they put in place the ability to have freedom of religion.
This is not a Christian nation but it was founded and runs on Christian values.

NO. Even saying that is bigoted. What about the other religions do they have to pack up and leave like some "Christians" have suggested on other websites. Or what about people like me who don't beleive in organized religion or athesists. We are a common people with many ideas. "Out of many one" E Pluribus Unem"

We are a nation of laws which were derived from the people. God was not present in person at the ratification of the Constitution nor in spirit handing us the document.

If this were a nation founded on the Bible or Christianity, please show me one part of the Constitution or bill of rights, or monroe doctrine or any case law, regulation, bill or SCOTUS ruling where it sights the Bible or God as the focus or reference for that article? You won't be able to do it because it doesn't exist.

Although the Constitution does not directly say it SCOTUS and numerous other legal decisions since the 18th century have upheld the idea and force of separation of church and state. That was done to protect all religiolns from the undue influence of one as was the case in colonial times.

Wolfman24

Fiddytree said:

We should also let it be known that Franklin was quite pleased when religious leaders stressed the importance of helping their fellow man and their communities as a whole. He would attend these religious ceremonies and contribute funds. If they deviated from his preferences he would no longer attend the services nor would he contribute to their funds.

I think, if my reading of his autobiography was correct, religion could be properly utilized for the City if it was truly interested in helping the City. If it really tried to separate itself from the good of the community, what practical use was it?

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that's about what it came to - I try to make a point of rereading that once every two years or so.

AlbqOwl said:

As something of a Biblical historian, I have been enjoying your posts.

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Thank you !

Most modern Bible experts have placed Genesis 1--the first creation story--as one of the latest of Old Testament documents most likley written during the disapora period - probably late sixth century or possibly even a bit later. This would have put it very close to the culture of early scientific thought that gave us Socrates, Plato, Xenophon, Aristophanes, and ultimately Aristotle. However, while the first chapter of Genesis was not exactly produced in a scientific vacuum, it was not intended to be scientific but rather was a pure doctrinal statement to illustrate that all that was, is, or will ever be comes from God. The second chapter of Genesis was one of the earliest manuscripts included in what we call the Old Testament.

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well.... yes...... ish. The variant threads of Genesis were assembled later from much earlier accounts that appear to have survived in some kind of written form into the diaspora. That's why you get multiple versions of the same story, and editorial comments. The Deuderonomistic Historian (if you haven't heard of that, look it up, you'll find it fascinating) basically took the history coming out of Judah and the history coming out of Israel and just smashed them together with occasional commentary ("and we still call it thus to this day" or "and this was to show that..." type stuff). So apparently portions of what became Genesis was written down in the days of the split kingdom... and just wasn't compiled until there was a real need to use the Text as the center of Yaweh Worship, rather than the Temple.

None of this, however, addresses the question of whether the country was founded on Christian principles, but I have always held to concept that one cannot fully understand or appreciate the New Testament without a good grounding in the Old Testament as all the writers of the New Testament well knew and took the content of the Old Testament for granted and assumed their readers did so also. And so did the Founders in their Christian beliefs see that all that was, is, and will be comes from God, and founded this country on that belief and therefore the unalienable rights given by God would not be infringed.

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that last is very true - they were inherently Lockean in their outlook on that subject.

AlbqOwl said:

all the writers of the New Testament well knew and took the content of the Old Testament for granted and assumed their readers did so also.

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Mark (meant for Romans) and Luke (meant for Greeks) go out of their way to explain OT references, Jewish traditions/customs and locations that would be unfamiliar to their respective audiences.

It was founded on a number of principles. The Christian influence is strong, but so are the humanistic principles laced within.

The time was the late 18th Century, otherwise known as the Age of Reason. The founding fathers of the our country wanted to not repeat the mistakes made in Europe with setting up another monarchy entwined with a religious "state". The founding fathers were religious only to the point that they attended church on Sundays and tried to live their lives according to the example of the Ten Commandments. However, they also believed in the philosophy of Aristotle, John Locke, Thomas Paine and others of the time who advocated the rights not of the "state" but of the individual. The right to acquire and own private property without any hinderance or interference by a government. To treat each other as equal traders and not force others to submit to any form of totalitarianism or despotism that already had existed in Europe and the rest of the world for the previous 1800 years. They attempted to take the best ideas that would give people freedom but with responsibility, protection of one's rights without taking away someone else's. And most if not all based upon common sense and rational thinking. The Age of Reason was not an reaffirmation of the the despotic and religious tyranny and hypocrisy of Europe. In the United States, the concept was to free people from those negative influences and allow normal intellectual and economic growth and development. It was the very first time in the history of the entire world that such an experiment had ever been allowed to take place and with such success. Others were inspired to do the same, such as France in 1789 but they failed miserably. Thousands executed and in the end they ended up with a military dictator, Napolean. Other countries have tried to do the same that the U.S. but all or at least have failed.

FreeMarket said:

The time was the late 18th Century, otherwise known as the Age of Reason. The founding fathers of the our country wanted to not repeat the mistakes made in Europe with setting up another monarchy entwined with a religious "state". The founding fathers were religious only to the point that they attended church on Sundays and tried to live their lives according to the example of the Ten Commandments. However, they also believed in the philosophy of Aristotle, John Locke, Thomas Paine and others of the time who advocated the rights not of the "state" but of the individual. The right to acquire and own private property without any hinderance or interference by a government. To treat each other as equal traders and not force others to submit to any form of totalitarianism or despotism that already had existed in Europe and the rest of the world for the previous 1800 years. They attempted to take the best ideas that would give people freedom but with responsibility, protection of one's rights without taking away someone else's. And most if not all based upon common sense and rational thinking. The Age of Reason was not an reaffirmation of the the despotic and religious tyranny and hypocrisy of Europe. In the United States, the concept was to free people from those negative influences and allow normal intellectual and economic growth and development. It was the very first time in the history of the entire world that such an experiment had ever been allowed to take place and with such success. Others were inspired to do the same, such as France in 1789 but they failed miserably. Thousands executed and in the end they ended up with a military dictator, Napolean. Other countries have tried to do the same that the U.S. but all or at least have failed.

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Read "The Age of Reason" by Tom Paine.

From my understanding, many of our founding fathers were deists. So, no.

70% vote no? Do people no longer know the history of America?

I dont think relgion had any bearing on the founding of the US. The birth of the US was driven by persecution, a hunger for sovereignty and of course freedom, the soldiers who lined up against the red coats were not fighting for God they were fighting for their families and an chance to be free from tyranny.

Secular does not mean Atheist or anti-religion. With religious freedom there is no reason to have a nonsecular Government. People are free in America to worship or not to worship anything that they want. We can build churches we can stand on a box and our neighbors about our beliefs. Again no one is spiritually or religiously disenfranchised in America.


Religion in Government means only one thing and that is a dictatorship. All theological Governments have all been dictatorships...

Which Christianity? The one where slavery is wrong or the one where slavery is accepted by god?