Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

Let's all remember that even if Jefferson was a Deist (which from what I have read, he was) that doesn't mean he was anti-God, anti-Jesus or anti-religion. He was very much for the freedom to worship as you please or not at all.

Nymphetamine said:

Ben Franklin - Deist
The religion of Benjamin Franklin, founding father

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Benjamin Franklin was a Christian.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

Nymphetamine said:

George Washington - Contested, possibly Christian, possibly Deist. Not a strong advocate of either belief
George Washington and Religion

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Not a strong advocate of Christianity????

I really think people just google things like "George Washington's religion" and then just go with the one that says he was probably a Deist.

*sigh*

Read his WORDS, not someone else's revisionist history.

digsbe said:

I think the country was founded upon Christian morals and the rights we have are ours because the founders believed the Christian God gave them to us.

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Well... your 'thinking' is wrong and that is troubling. Instead of relying on GlenBeck and Sarah Palin for your education, I encorge you to take U.S. History or Poli Sci class at a community college. You might learn something.

You are all arguing and irrlevant point. I already addressed this. The US was not intended to have a Christian government. The US was intended to be a country that was open to any religion, and the religion that is dominant would make the nation one of that religion. The USA is a Christian Nation, for reasons already addressed...

hazlnut said:

Well... your 'thinking' is wrong and that is troubling. Instead of relying on GlenBeck and Sarah Palin for your education, I encorge you to take U.S. History or Poli Sci class at a community college. You might learn something.

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What exactly was wrong with what he said? Please explain.

hazlnut said:

Well... your 'thinking' is wrong and that is troubling. Instead of relying on GlenBeck and Sarah Palin for your education, I encorge you to take U.S. History or Poli Sci class at a community college. You might learn something.

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Alternatively, you could go to Princeton for undergrad, Yale for your law degree, become one of the most prominent scholars on the relationship between law and religion, and then write a book about it:

After a brief look at Christian thought on the proper relationship between church and state during the pre-colonial and early colonial periods, Hamburger undertakes a survey of American religious and political thought in the colonial and revolutionary time. What he finds generally contradicts what he calls the “myth” that separation was a philosophy that found a wide following among the minority religious groups present in America in those days, who chafed under the limitations created by the existence of the established churches in the various States. Instead, the sources reveal that only a small handful of individuals, such as Roger Williams and Thomas Paine, ever came close to advocating outright separation of church and state. The mainstream views of majority and minority religious thinkers alike, however, tended to assume that the survival of civil government depended on the health of religion and the morality that it inculcated in the citizenry. Indeed, leaders of established churches frequently accused the dissenting denominations of seeking an unhealthy separation of the two spheres, but the dissenters themselves seldom if ever expressed their aspirations in terms of separation. Generally, what they sought was an end to the privileged status of established churches—a sort of equal protection for all religions, rather than a separation of church and state.

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Mellie said:

Benjamin Franklin was a Christian.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

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"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
--Ben Franklin

"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."
--Ben Franklin

Mellie said:

What exactly was wrong with what he said? Please explain.

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It's not based in facts on record.

It was conceived as a nation primarily settled upon by Christians with no state church. Subconsciously, it was a great deal more Christian in appearance than some here would like to believe. Nevertheless, it would be foolish, and downright idiotic to really pigeonhole an incredibly diverse group of individuals into specific personal beliefs and political beliefs, when there was a decent amount of variety in both. Picking a few "Founding Fathers" to back up one's point about the whole group of "Founding Fathers" is far too simplistic.

The United States has always had a problem in figuring out just how religious it should be and in what way can it be. There was always a bit of the culture war.

hazlnut said:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
--Ben Franklin

"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."
--Ben Franklin

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And this proves that he's a Deist how? All he is saying is that he doesn't attend church and he doesn't think people should argue about religion. ??? Are you seeing something I'm not?

Here are some more for you:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.30

The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.31 (FRANKLIN’S EULOGY THAT HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF)

I suggest you read the quotes I posted on this thread around page 4ish. Don't rely upon what others say about the Founders. Read their words on your own. THINK on your own.

hazlnut said:

It's not based in facts on record.

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And those facts would be.............?

He said this: I think the country was founded upon Christian morals and the rights we have are ours because the founders believed the Christian God gave them to us.

Please explain what is wrong with that statement and provide proof. Thank you.

Mellie said:

And this proves that he's a Deist how? All he is saying is that he doesn't attend church and he doesn't think people should argue about religion. ??? Are you seeing something I'm not?

Here are some more for you:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.30

The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.31 (FRANKLIN’S EULOGY THAT HE WROTE FOR HIMSELF)

I suggest you read the quotes I posted on this thread around page 4ish. Don't rely upon what others say about the Founders. Read their words on your own. THINK on your own.

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He himself was more of a man who appreciated preachers who emphasized the work man can do themselves and for each other. He would listen to those preachers and contribute money to those whom he enjoyed, and would stop listening and contributing when the message was no longer in his favor. The metaphysical details were not what he cared for, but it was the message that was important to him. Thus, he could enjoy Christianity when it contributed to the well-being of the commonwealth.

Mellie said:

LOL! I don't read HuffPo articles. I agree that Congress didn't themselves PRINT the Bible. They APPROVED the Bible for the use in schools. Yes, for the use in schools. That's what Aitken was asking for in his petition (did you read the actual documents or just leftie opinions on the topic?). He specifically said he wanted to publish the Bible for SCHOOLS to use. Congress approved of it and recommended it.

For Barton to be "destroyed" she would've had to have proved that Congress had nothing to do with this Bible. She didn't and she can't.

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That's not what the resolution said:

Whereupon, Resolved, That the United States in Congress assembled, highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report, of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorise him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.(9)

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David Barton and his new buddy, Glenn Beck, are first class liiars.

pb.....*SIGH*

You don't seem to be listening to me. Aitken wrote in his petition letter to Congress that he wanted to publish the Bible TO USE IN SCHOOLS. FOR SCHOOLS. SCHOOLS. Should I say it again?

Congress approved the printing of it and allowed him to do with it as he wanted. He wanted the schools to use it. They KNEW that! If they didn't approve of the use in schools, they wouldn't have approved it! It's not difficult to understand, really.

Kali said:

And on the other hand people die in the name of religion daily. Guess it all evens out, huh?

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And how many people are not killed and don't die because they share a religion? Christians and Jews and Muslims are less likely to kill each other because they have something important in common.

Mellie said:

pb.....*SIGH*

You don't seem to be listening to me. Aitken wrote in his petition letter to Congress that he wanted to publish the Bible TO USE IN SCHOOLS. FOR SCHOOLS. SCHOOLS. Should I say it again?

Congress approved the printing of it and allowed him to do with it as he wanted. He wanted the schools to use it. They KNEW that! If they didn't approve of the use in schools, they wouldn't have approved it! It's not difficult to understand, really.

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You are wrong, all the resolution said that ot was accurate, but no funding was provided. The fact that put in his petition that it was for schools means NOTHING NADA ZILCH NIENTE NICHTS.

Re the Aitken Bible issue itself, I have a few observations:

1) the congressional resolution does not say anything about recommending them for schools, specifically (as Barton claims that it does on pg. 106 of The Myth of Separation and, I believe, in his videos). It supports the work in “the interest of religion, as well as the progress of arts” – but not, specifically, for schools.

2) the Congress did not authorize money to finance or purchase the Bibles, contrary to what I believe Barton has said on TV and (I think) on one of his videos. Again, on pg. 106 of The Myth, he says that Congress “approved his request” – but that’s not entirely true. He requested permission and funding – they granted permission, but not funding. This is a minor point, but it illustrates Barton taking some truth and magnifying it/expanding it to make it sound better for his position.

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American Creation: Frazer On Rodda, Barton, & the Aitken Bible

Bodhisattva said:

You are all arguing and irrlevant point. I already addressed this. The US was not intended to have a Christian government. The US was intended to be a country that was open to any religion, and the religion that is dominant would make the nation one of that religion. The USA is a Christian Nation, for reasons already addressed...

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I know. Thank you for laying it out well in this thread, I had grown tired of doing it. Its rather funny, we have people lecturing others to take a community college Poli Sci class while completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of people in this thread aren't even arguing what the statement actually means.

hazlnut said:

"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them."
--Ben Franklin

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It seems here that Mr. Franklin was making an important point about the desirability of religion, comparing it to nutrition-- and at the same time condemning the sectarian strife of his era. He makes a good point here; sectarian conflict over points of doctrine distances people from their faith and from the morality inherent to it.

One can be Christian in belief while disliking organized religious practices or even "The church".

One can be a Diest while adhering to the morals and ethics of the bible and attending Christian services.

One can be a person steeped in faith while disliking many "religious" people and how they act.

These things are not muturally exclusive.

Not to mention, I'm not even sure what question is being asked or should be answered as the OP has given us three seperate ones.

From the subject: "Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?" This question seems to be asking us if Christianity, and its principles, helped lead to the foundation upon which the country was built

From the Poll: "Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?" This question seems to be asking us if the foundered INTENDED for the U.S.'s population to be that of a Christian Nation. IE, that the majority of those living within the confines of the general border of the "United States" would share a common bond of a similar base religion amongst them, with that religion being Christianity.

From the Original Post: "I hear all the time that 'this is a Christian Nation'. Do you think this is so?" This question seems to be asking whether, regardless of Founder intent, we are a Christian Nation (described above)

Funnily enough, the question most answered in this thread has been "Was the intent of the Founding Fathers that the United States should be a Christian State?" and/or "Is the U.S. a Christian State?". However, save for possibly through implication and the assumption that the OP doesn't know what "Nation" actually is defined as, this question was never even asked.

One of the most profound writings about religion was done by Tom Paine in his "Age of Reason, Part I and II".

Teddy Roosevelt called him "that dirty little atheist". An excerpt:

I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I believe the equality of man, and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?

Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more.

CHAPTER II - OF MISSIONS AND REVELATIONS.

EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some observations on the word 'revelation.' Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

Mellie said:

For Barton to be "destroyed" she would've had to have proved that Congress had nothing to do with this Bible. She didn't and she can't.

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Barton was destroyed years ago when it was demonstrated that he'd falsified quotes from the founding fathers to attempt to make the case that the U.S. should be a theocracy.

Fail. The fact that you consider him a reliable source at this point is ridiculous.

Mellie said:

Read his WORDS, not someone else's revisionist history.

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This is ironic considering that your primary source in this thread is a discredited revisionist.

Mellie said:

He said this: I think the country was founded upon Christian morals and the rights we have are ours because the founders believed the Christian God gave them to us.

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Actually, the rights were not taken from Christian thought at all, but from enlightenment philosophies. That's why the founders dared to strike out against the divine rights of King George. The christian belief (see the book of Romans) was that governments were instituted by God, not by man, so rebellion against the government was a form of rebellion against God.