View Poll Results: Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

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Thread: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

  1. #421
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    My question was in regards to the Treaty of Tripoli...

    ...I agree that there is a Separation of Church and State and that this nation is not a "Christian 'Nation'" but rather a nation comprised of mostly Christian people's...
    Lol oops my mistake you did say treaty. Sorry

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Is the United States a "Christian Nation"? No, sadly, I think not.

    Was it founded upon the principles of Christianity, by men of whom the vast majority espoused Christian principles and clearly intended that many of these same principles be applied to the direction in which US public policy was going?.............Most certainly...........the vast preponderance of the evidence is there and indicates as much............at least to those who aren't blinded by the shroud of political correctness and the revisionism to which it leads.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  3. #423
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What kind of source would suffice? There really isn't going to be a document stating that they negate the Treaty since it is really an irrelevant and outdated document itself.
    Let me try this again but with relevance to your question.

    What would suffice is something stating that the legal agreement of the treaty is now void. Beyond that something that indicates the legal stance of congress and the Constitution that states that there is no separation of church and state implied or intended.


    Regardless of what people say in trying to marginalize the treaty it was a legal document none the less. Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Let me try this again but with relevance to your question.

    What would suffice is something stating that the legal agreement of the treaty is now void. Beyond that something that indicates the legal stance of congress and the Constitution that states that there is no separation of church and state implied or intended.


    Regardless of what people say in trying to marginalize the treaty it was a legal document none the less. Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
    Have you ever actually read the Arabic translation of the Treaty of Tripoli? Perhaps you should take a look and upon viewing it, you may change your mind about using it as a legal document to defend the principle of Separation of Church and State......the phrase "Praise be to God" is used about one hundred times..... Here is a link:

    Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty with Tripoli 1796 <BR> The Annotated Translation of 1930
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  5. #425
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Here's the exact transcript of the introduction to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, signed and ratified in 1848............52 years AFTER the meaningless Treaty of Tripoli and 43 years AFTER Jefferson's PERSONAL letter which had NO LEGAL SIGNIFICANCE whatsoever. Looking at the wording of the treaty, one would assume that adoption of the principle of "Separation of Church and State" was far from a foregone conclusion in the US. Just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Is the United States a "Christian Nation"? No, sadly, I think not.

    Was it founded upon the principles of Christianity, by men of whom the vast majority espoused Christian principles and clearly intended that many of these same principles be applied to the direction in which US public policy was going?.............Most certainly...........the vast preponderance of the evidence is there and indicates as much............at least to those who aren't blinded by the shroud of political correctness and the revisionism to which it leads.
    What is the opposite of the phrase separation of church and state? The opposite would obviously be like this: the church and state are one. We are not talking about a sentence here or there or some religious phrases we are talking about a national church in effect a theocracy when we are talking about no separation between church and state. With no separation the church is part of the Government much like how things are in many countries in the middle east.


    Personally I have no use for political correctness And I despise revisionism of history and reality. Add those two accusations together and obviously you think that I am an liberal, you are quite mistaken.

    People can be religious and be in the Government after all the 1st Amendment protects that right. The reason that people are upset about religion and Government right now is because the religious Right keeps claiming that there is no separation of church and state. That assertion coupled with the other assertions that the religious Right make about true Americans are Christian's, well we just do not trust anyone anymore to not force a theocracy down our throats. And since it would be simple to prove my point by linking many Republican and Tea Party sites that promote the idea of an CHristian Nation while it is obvious that we are a melting pot of cultures where freedom of religion is the rule of the land where we are free to worship or not worship whatever we want, sorry if it offends you that I want freedom and liberty and not a theocracy.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Let me try this again but with relevance to your question.

    What would suffice is something stating that the legal agreement of the treaty is now void. Beyond that something that indicates the legal stance of congress and the Constitution that states that there is no separation of church and state implied or intended.


    Regardless of what people say in trying to marginalize the treaty it was a legal document none the less. Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796
    For the Americans, the terms of the treaty were quickly rendered moot. Citing late payments of tribute, the Pasha of Tripoli, in 1801, declared war on the United States. The United States fought back this time, and sent the Navy and Marines to Tripoli (to the famed "shores of Tripoli"), where the Pasha's forces were defeated. A new treaty, finalized in 1805, included a payment of ransom for U.S. prisoners, but no further payment of tribute. - Index Page - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net
    The Pasha of Tripoli actually declared war on the US in 1801..........five years after the drafting of the treaty you cited. I would call this all the evidence needed to render the original treaty invalid......wouldn't you?
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    What is the opposite of the phrase separation of church and state? The opposite would obviously be like this: the church and state are one. We are not talking about a sentence here or there or some religious phrases we are talking about a national church in effect a theocracy when we are talking about no separation between church and state. With no separation the church is part of the Government much like how things are in many countries in the middle east.


    Personally I have no use for political correctness And I despise revisionism of history and reality. Add those two accusations together and obviously you think that I am an liberal, you are quite mistaken.

    People can be religious and be in the Government after all the 1st Amendment protects that right. The reason that people are upset about religion and Government right now is because the religious Right keeps claiming that there is no separation of church and state. That assertion coupled with the other assertions that the religious Right make about true Americans are Christian's, well we just do not trust anyone anymore to not force a theocracy down our throats. And since it would be simple to prove my point by linking many Republican and Tea Party sites that promote the idea of an CHristian Nation while it is obvious that we are a melting pot of cultures where freedom of religion is the rule of the land where we are free to worship or not worship whatever we want, sorry if it offends you that I want freedom and liberty and not a theocracy.
    All of this is fine and good, but does not detract from the FACT that there is NO constitutional basis nor official, legal, FEDERAL document which upholds a strict policy of Separation of Church and State and there never has been.

    The fact that the Federal Govt. would include the mention of God (with a capital "G") in it's legal draftings, such as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, seems to make this painstakingly obvious......at least to those without blinders on. I'm not saying that this is either "right" or "good"; I'm just saying............that's the way it is......period.
    Last edited by FluffyNinja; 09-25-12 at 11:06 PM.
    "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Dr. Carl Sagan

  8. #428
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    All of this is fine and good, but does not detract from the FACT that there is NO constitutional basis nor official, legal, FEDERAL document which upholds a strict policy of Separation of Church and State and there never has been.

    The fact that the Federal Govt. would include the mention of God (with a capital "G") in it's legal draftings, such as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, seems to make this painstakingly obvious......at least to those wihout blinders on. I'm not saying that this is either "right" or "good"; I'm just saying............that's the way it is......period.
    AT best you could claim that it used to be that way but no longer is. Kind of like we used to have slavery but no longer tolerate it. In the present the legal understanding of the Constitution is that there is a separation of church and state. Believing that there is another definition since the word god was used in places (excluding the Constitution, which if to your claim had any real meaning god and jesus would be all over the Constitution which it isnt) is meaningless without the legal backing to prove your point.

    And as I pointed out our official history defines the separation of church and state as a main theme of the framers. Its a simple concept that the framers had though, if I want to ensure my right to believe in or not believe in whatever I want I must ensure that everyone has the same right as I do. The idea that this is a officially Christian Nation completely spits in the face of everyone that is not Christian and make the US sound more like the persecution that this countries forefathers tried to get away from.

    It is easy for a Christian to say that America is a Christian nation but for non-Christians it a threat to our freedoms and our liberties to enjoy the same opportunities that we were all born with citizens or by those that have made this their permanent home. Im not sure how any Christians can honestly ignore our rich diverse history without feeling a bit hypocritical when they insist that we are all supposed to be Christian's just because we are Americans. Again I am reminded of the middle east but that should not be a big surprise since that is the origin of Christianity not America.

  9. #429
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    Have you ever actually read the Arabic translation of the Treaty of Tripoli? Perhaps you should take a look and upon viewing it, you may change your mind about using it as a legal document to defend the principle of Separation of Church and State......the phrase "Praise be to God" is used about one hundred times..... Here is a link:

    Avalon Project - The Barbary Treaties 1786-1816 - Treaty with Tripoli 1796 <BR> The Annotated Translation of 1930
    This is a joke right? AT least I hope you are joking, considering that we did not write this treaty. Hell not even one American signed the damn thing. Lol

  10. #430
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyNinja View Post
    The Pasha of Tripoli actually declared war on the US in 1801..........five years after the drafting of the treaty you cited. I would call this all the evidence needed to render the original treaty invalid......wouldn't you?
    Invalid as a legal treaty but the power of the Presidents seal backs the document as a legal document and you would need some legal proceeding to remove the legal significance of what is written in it. I am unaware of any court that has proven the information pertaining to the separation of church and state as being invalid information. In fact as I am sure that you there was a Supreme Court ruling that gave the document legal basis in determining the meaning of the 1st Amendment. You cannot just wish these things away because they do not go along with what you believe.

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