View Poll Results: Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

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    44 24.44%
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    118 65.56%
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Thread: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

  1. #381
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, you are vastly overgeneralizing much of Genesis and not correct in other aspects.
    i'm going with a rough outline, certainly. Adam, you will note, makes no individual entrance. the point isn't that Genesis is an exacting account of the degree of accuracy that we would demand from modern science - it's that it's an exacting account of the degree of accuracy we would expect from a nomadic culture in the 10th Century BC. compared to any other creation myth, the Genesis account remains eerily accurate.

    Andrew Parker does a much better job of walking through this as a biologist with a specialty in evolutionary history; but he himself is agnostic, so i'm not sure i would take his spiritual musings.

    In fact, it sounds quite egotistic of us to assume that God made everything just for us.
    perhaps so indeed; yet it keeps cropping up that way. the universe seems incredibly fine-tuned for the purpose of supporting life. scientists call it the anthropic principle.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    The anthropic principle argues that observations on a universe must be compatible with the conscious life that observes it. Some actually reason that this explains why the universe is so old as it is, and has the constants necessary to accommodate conscious life. Essentially they believe that the fact that the universe's observed basic constants are within the narrow range thought to allow life is not remarkable.
    In short, if it were not as it is, we would either not exist, or would have evolved differently. The anthropic principle does not support the God idea.
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  3. #383
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    I hear all the time that "this is a Christian Nation". Do you think this is so.

    I am going to go ahead and say anyone who truly thinks this country was meant to be a Christian nation is a complete moron. The founding fathers were secularist, there is some evidence indicating Thomas Jefferson was at least agnostic.

    " The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson
    I thought I threw my 2 cents in the mix of this thread already but I couldnt find it and I certainly didnt vote yet so I guess Ill do it now and answer the three questions.

    "Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?"
    Of course not, that is just silly and I cant believe anybody would ask that or its even a questin, that would go against what america is.

    "Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?"
    Yes parts of it were founded WITH Christianity but certainly not entirely and certainly not upon. There were other religions/beliefs that went into our founding and one of the most important was religious FREEDOM

    "I hear people say we are a Christian Nation, Do you think this is so?"
    again of course not because it isnt so. Why would anybody every think that? We are not, never will and never will be, this again would go against america and simply isnt true


    now on a side note, unless we are talking about a very very general definition of nation its not true.

    People typically have a view of what a nation is but text book wise could be very general, ill have to look it up. It may say group of common/majority people LOL

    and I guess if thats all one needs then you could make the argument but then you could also say we are a
    a white nation, or female nation since those are also majority but yes, those sond dumb to me too

    anyway basically the answers are no, parts of, and no anything else is people believing what they WISH, HOPE or WANT to be true but it simply isnt.
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  4. #384
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    an interesting claim. the only self-proclaimed Deist i'm aware of among the Founding Fathers was Benjamin Franklin. Jefferson probably was as well intellectually, but he worshipped at Christian services, and certainly had no problem with public expressions of faith in the Divine.

    perhaps you could cite for us the numbers of this "majority" of Founding Fathers who were deists?

    as for this notion:

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
    -John Adams
    Well, since we're quoting Adams, he of the Almost Took Down The Country Adamses, hows this bit of history?

    John Adams saw himself as a rational Christian, a term Unitarians often used to describe themselves, and proudly identified his ministers as Unitarians. He decried “Athanasianism,” referring to orthodox Christian Trinitarianism, which asserts the incarnation and deity of Christ, and he urged Thomas Jefferson not to hire European professors at the University of Virginia because "They are all infected with Episcopal and Presbyterian creeds, and confessions of faith....And until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world."

    http://www.opposingviews.com/counter...t-there-s-more
    Last edited by Kev316; 12-24-10 at 04:34 PM.
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    We should also let it be known that Franklin was quite pleased when religious leaders stressed the importance of helping their fellow man and their communities as a whole. He would attend these religious ceremonies and contribute funds. If they deviated from his preferences he would no longer attend the services nor would he contribute to their funds.

    I think, if my reading of his autobiography was correct, religion could be properly utilized for the City if it was truly interested in helping the City. If it really tried to separate itself from the good of the community, what practical use was it?
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 12-24-10 at 05:01 PM.
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  6. #386
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev316 View Post
    Well, since we're quoting Adams, he of the Almost Took Down The Country Adamses, hows this bit of history?
    almost took down the country? that's a mighty big claim; i'd love to see you wander over to the history threads and try to back it up.

    but we can stick with Adams if you like. he also wrote the 1780 Massachusetts Constitution:
    [the] good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend(s) upon piety, religion, and morality... by the institution of public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality
    North Carolina was a bit more specific:
    No person who shall deny the being of God, or the truth of the Protestant religion, or the divine authority of either the Old or New Testaments, or who shall hold religious principles incompatible with the freedom and safety of the State (e.g. pacifism), shall be capable of holding any office, place of trust or profit, in the civil department, within this State
    at the time of ratification of the Federal Constitution; 10 of the 13 states had some provision recognizing Christianity as the official or recommended religion in their State Constitutions. Several ran state churches.

    the notion of a secular public square simply wasn't part of the Founders worldview. the most commonly referenced source in their political writings was the Bible (the study i saw referenced gave it 34% of all citations). indeed, they saw the widespread belief in God as the author of our rights as the necessary underpinning of our entire system of governance. even Jefferson (no modern bible thumper, he):
    Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath?

  7. #387
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    i'm going with a rough outline, certainly. Adam, you will note, makes no individual entrance. the point isn't that Genesis is an exacting account of the degree of accuracy that we would demand from modern science - it's that it's an exacting account of the degree of accuracy we would expect from a nomadic culture in the 10th Century BC. compared to any other creation myth, the Genesis account remains eerily accurate.

    Andrew Parker does a much better job of walking through this as a biologist with a specialty in evolutionary history; but he himself is agnostic, so i'm not sure i would take his spiritual musings.



    perhaps so indeed; yet it keeps cropping up that way. the universe seems incredibly fine-tuned for the purpose of supporting life. scientists call it the anthropic principle.
    As something of a Biblical historian, I have been enjoying your posts. Most modern Bible experts have placed Genesis 1--the first creation story--as one of the latest of Old Testament documents most likley written during the disapora period - probably late sixth century or possibly even a bit later. This would have put it very close to the culture of early scientific thought that gave us Socrates, Plato, Xenophon, Aristophanes, and ultimately Aristotle. However, while the first chapter of Genesis was not exactly produced in a scientific vacuum, it was not intended to be scientific but rather was a pure doctrinal statement to illustrate that all that was, is, or will ever be comes from God. The second chapter of Genesis was one of the earliest manuscripts included in what we call the Old Testament.

    None of this, however, addresses the question of whether the country was founded on Christian principles, but I have always held to concept that one cannot fully understand or appreciate the New Testament without a good grounding in the Old Testament as all the writers of the New Testament well knew and took the content of the Old Testament for granted and assumed their readers did so also. And so did the Founders in their Christian beliefs see that all that was, is, and will be comes from God, and founded this country on that belief and therefore the unalienable rights given by God would not be infringed.
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by BCR View Post
    I hear all the time that "this is a Christian Nation". Do you think this is so.

    I am going to go ahead and say anyone who truly thinks this country was meant to be a Christian nation is a complete moron. The founding fathers were secularist, there is some evidence indicating Thomas Jefferson was at least agnostic.

    " The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes; fools and hypocrites. To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." -Thomas Jefferson
    This nation was founded on Christian values and people that held those values. The founders also saw the dangers of a theocracy so they put in place the ability to have freedom of religion.
    This is not a Christian nation but it was founded and runs on Christian values.
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  9. #389
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    NO. Even saying that is bigoted. What about the other religions do they have to pack up and leave like some "Christians" have suggested on other websites. Or what about people like me who don't beleive in organized religion or athesists. We are a common people with many ideas. "Out of many one" E Pluribus Unem"

    We are a nation of laws which were derived from the people. God was not present in person at the ratification of the Constitution nor in spirit handing us the document.

    If this were a nation founded on the Bible or Christianity, please show me one part of the Constitution or bill of rights, or monroe doctrine or any case law, regulation, bill or SCOTUS ruling where it sights the Bible or God as the focus or reference for that article? You won't be able to do it because it doesn't exist.

    Although the Constitution does not directly say it SCOTUS and numerous other legal decisions since the 18th century have upheld the idea and force of separation of church and state. That was done to protect all religiolns from the undue influence of one as was the case in colonial times.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    We should also let it be known that Franklin was quite pleased when religious leaders stressed the importance of helping their fellow man and their communities as a whole. He would attend these religious ceremonies and contribute funds. If they deviated from his preferences he would no longer attend the services nor would he contribute to their funds.

    I think, if my reading of his autobiography was correct, religion could be properly utilized for the City if it was truly interested in helping the City. If it really tried to separate itself from the good of the community, what practical use was it?
    that's about what it came to - I try to make a point of rereading that once every two years or so.

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