View Poll Results: Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

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    44 24.44%
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    118 65.56%
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Thread: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

  1. #331
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    pshaw, this is an easy game. i can't prove that you aren't an Iranian agent attempting to weaken the moral fabric of American society through continuing the disconnect between our public life and our faith and so therefore you are.

    if the Founding Fathers claimed to be led by God, you have to accept that at face value, or just toss out nearly everything we know about reality. :sorry:
    Sure you can. You can get proof that I'm trying to do something very easily. You can set up a surveilance system to catch me, look into my background and interview anyone I have ever spoke with. It would be tough, but it can be proven.

    Now, you might have a difficult time trying to prove what I really believe or my true intentions, since those are internal thoughts and we can't exactly prove what people feel and think, yet. However, saying that, I don't have to accept anything the founding fathers said as true, since there is no way to go back in time and even know how each of them lived their lives. We can't know how any of them truly felt about God or if they were just pandering. They can believe that they were inspired by God and that God set forth certain inalienable rights, but it doesn't make it true.

    In fact, since those "inalienable rights" have been expanded to other people, then what is the explaination for God inspiring them to give certain inalienable rights to some but then waiting so long to inspire others to give those same rights to people that didn't fit in during that time?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #332
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    No, founded with church and state separation to prevent a theocracy and ensure that people can retain their religious freedoms without a state church or an oppressive secular government from telling them they can't believe/practice freely.
    AND to allow ANY religious beliefs or lack thereof to flourish. You paint it as a Christian only place when we KNOW other religions were present even if they were small.


    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Incorrect. They believed in God, they believed God created men equally and with rights.
    What about the deists?

    Why do you ignore them?

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    They didn't have to say "God told me to do this personally" in order to believe that our rights came from God. It can be proven that God inspired these as the Creator is mentioned specifically as the one who makes men equal and gives us our rights.
    Where? You realize the DOI is NOT part of the Constitution, right?

    I don't doubt SOME or even MOST believed the "rights" came from their preferred god. But your claim that they ALL did is stretching the truth. You ignore the deists and such men as Jefferson who held no such beliefs: "all men are created equal and independent, that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable"

    Notice there is no god on high who hands down the "inalienable rights" Jefferson speaks of.
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #333
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Sure you can. You can get proof that I'm trying to do something very easily. You can set up a surveilance system to catch me, look into my background and interview anyone I have ever spoke with. It would be tough, but it can be proven.
    nope; all those items do is demonstrate the deepness of your cover.

    see, the tick is that here we are willing to discount the available evidence if it does not support a preconcieved result (the founders did not recieve guidance from God, you are an iranian agent). it's called an "unfalsifiable thesis", and it's a fallacy.

  4. #334
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what God has given you, no man may take away.
    What do you have that no one can take away?

    People can enslave you, kill you, torture you, make you go insane, drug you, beat you, etc.

    There is NOTHING you have that cannnot be taken away by others given enough power and time.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    what man has given you he can take away just as easily.
    EVERYTHING can be taken from you. We can mulch up your brain with a knife or drugs to take your memories and forever change your personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    to say that our rights come from man is to say that we don't really have rights at all, we have preferences and temporary liberties.
    Welcome to reality. Where your "rights" are only what your society or group makes of them. Consult a history book for examples: slavery, freedom of religion, property rights, pedophilia, genocide, rape, trial by jury, ...
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  5. #335
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    I suppose it might have been the intent, but it failed....
    I voted NO.
    Oracle of Utah
    Truth rings hollow in empty heads.

  6. #336
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    nope; all those items do is demonstrate the deepness of your cover.

    see, the tick is that here we are willing to discount the available evidence if it does not support a preconcieved result (the founders did not recieve guidance from God, you are an iranian agent). it's called an "unfalsifiable thesis", and it's a fallacy.
    Look, what would be concrete proof that God talked to those founding fathers? We cannot possibly have proof that God talked to them, not yet. You can get proof that I am trying to destroy America or convert people, or at least that it seemed to be my intention. There isn't any way to even prove that God seemed to want something to happen, especially not with the contradiction that I mentioned. If God wanted both to happen, then why wait so long between "inspiring" people to do one but not the other. He is God, if He truly wanted to make changes in how people live then He could have done so. Logic holds that he could have very easily have influenced every one of those founding fathers to go that step further, free the slaves, and give all those rights enumerated in the Constitution to every human being, not just those that were deemed worthy by the majority of the people at the time.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #337
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    So one is left with one conclusion: The US was founded with christianity, not upon it. If you want to know what the US was founded on, I would say: Responsibility for "rights only exist within the context of responsibility.
    No place in the Constitution is God mentioned, including the preamble, but it does protect the right to be religious in the First Amendment. In article two, the President says the words... "I do solemnly swear, or affirm..." That's as close as it gets to any reference to God.

    ricksfolly

  8. #338
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    What do you have that no one can take away?

    People can enslave you, kill you, torture you, make you go insane, drug you, beat you, etc.

    There is NOTHING you have that cannnot be taken away by others given enough power and time.
    you are confusing practice of a right with having the right itself. I, for example, have the right to bear arms irrespective of whether or not i choose to do so. one does not lose the right to bear arms simply because someone does not have weaponry. when the police illegally search a vehicle or home, they have not removed one's rights in this area, they have violated rights that still exist. i can be murdered; that doesn't mean that i do not have the right not to be deprived of life without due process of law.

  9. #339
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    you are confusing practice of a right with having the right itself. I, for example, have the right to bear arms irrespective of whether or not i choose to do so. one does not lose the right to bear arms simply because someone does not have weaponry. when the police illegally search a vehicle or home, they have not removed one's rights in this area, they have violated rights that still exist. i can be murdered; that doesn't mean that i do not have the right not to be deprived of life without due process of law.
    And how are rights created? Some pedophiles believe they have the "right" to rape little children but others simply don't recognize their right. And guess what? They are correct.

    "Rights" are a human construct about what freedoms and actions a person is allowed within a society. They are nothing more than a personal or group opinion that are sometimes codified.

    Even if your favored god does exist, he is unwilling or unable to ensure the exercise of his preferred rights. At the very most he has informed you of what freedoms and actions (rights) he finds acceptable within a society.
    Last edited by scourge99; 12-21-10 at 05:36 PM. Reason: less hostile
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  10. #340
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Look, what would be concrete proof that God talked to those founding fathers?
    there isn't any; just as there isn't any concrete proof that you are not working on behalf of the Iranians. all we can do is go with the available evidence, indeed, that's all we can do with anything in life. what you are suggesting, however, is that we should for some reason dispel this rational approach in order to favor your preferred outcome.

    There isn't any way to even prove that God seemed to want something to happen, especially not with the contradiction that I mentioned. If God wanted both to happen, then why wait so long between "inspiring" people to do one but not the other. He is God, if He truly wanted to make changes in how people live then He could have done so. Logic holds that he could have very easily have influenced every one of those founding fathers to go that step further, free the slaves, and give all those rights enumerated in the Constitution to every human being, not just those that were deemed worthy by the majority of the people at the time.
    i would say that He seems to have been improving us as a species no faster than we can manage, broken as we are. and I would point out as well that the abolitionist movement was made up most ardently by His followers who also claimed that He was pushing them to action in that area. The Founding Fathers felt similarly; Thomas Jefferson in particular wrote that he trembled with fear for the future of his nation when he reflected that God was Just.

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