View Poll Results: Do you think the U.S. was intended to be a Christian Nation?

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Thread: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

  1. #131
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    So do you think a State's Constitution should take precedence over the federal one that calls for equality in religions??
    I don't, but that's not what was going on. My point is simply that the framers did not believe that the First Amendment prevented individual states from favoring one religion over another or religion over irreligion. At drafting, the First Amendment limited the actions of the federal government, not the states. Several states chose to enact protections similar to those in the First Amendment. Others didn't.

    The relevance of this information to today is not that it means states can create official religions now (they can't), but that it gives us a more accurate understanding of what the framers thought about the relationship between government and religion.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    And those facts would be.............?
    These (and there are hundreds more). Keep quoting your Christian revisionists - the facts will continue to annhilate them every time :

    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

    And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    "Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America." -
    Common Sense, January 10, 1776
    -Thomas Paine

    Reason and Ignorance, the opposites of each other, influence the great bulk of mankind. If either of these can be rendered sufficiently extensive in a country, the machinery of government goes easily on. Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man: Being An Answer To Mr. Burke's Attack On The French Revolution, Part the First, Conclusion

    To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Crisis

    It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
    -- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)

    I think the country was founded upon Christian morals and the rights we have are ours because the founders believed the Christian God gave them to us.
    His statement is false, as the above quotes (among many others) prove. Many of the founders were not Christians - they were diests or atheists, and even those who claimed to be Christian considered Christian fundamentalism to be evil, and founded this country on the principles of the enightenment and the Age of Reason.

    Please explain what is wrong with that statement and provide proof. Thank you.
    Done. You're welcome.

    I'm sorry if our Founders and the values that they founded this great country on offend you and your fellow America-hating Christian revistionists. If you hate this country and it's values, you're free to move to Saudi Arabia or some nation that better reflects your "values".

    Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

    Rape in the Bible
    Last edited by Toothpicvic; 06-28-10 at 03:49 PM.

  3. #133
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't, but that's not what was going on. My point is simply that the framers did not believe that the First Amendment prevented individual states from favoring one religion over another or religion over irreligion. At drafting, the First Amendment limited the actions of the federal government, not the states. Several states chose to enact protections similar to those in the First Amendment. Others didn't.

    The relevance of this information to today is not that it means states can create official religions now (they can't), but that it gives us a more accurate understanding of what the framers thought about the relationship between government and religion.

    I think some of the founders would agree with you and I think others would disagree with you.
    Last edited by winston53660; 06-28-10 at 03:53 PM.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    This is ironic considering that your primary source in this thread is a discredited revisionist.
    My primary sources are the words of the Founders. Surely you read the quotes and sources I gave? None of that was opinion from Barton. All of it was primary sourcing from the Founders.


  5. #135
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    I think some of the founders would agree with and I think others would disagree with you.
    I'm sure that there were those who had a personal disagreement with the policy behind it, but my point is that it's indisputable that when the First Amendment was enacted, nobody in Congress understood it as actually preventing the things that were going on in MA or CT.

    It wasn't until the 1870's that the religion clauses were even theoretically applied to the states, and it took until the 1940's before they were actually applied to the states.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellie View Post
    My primary sources are the words of the Founders. Surely you read the quotes and sources I gave? None of that was opinion from Barton. All of it was primary sourcing from the Founders.
    Hmm I sense evasion.

    BTW, none of the quotes you gave supported your "Christian nation assertions". They were just random quotes by Founders where "god" was mentioned in a general sense - which was the cultural norm for the time, and not remarkable at all. My quotes on the other hand would have been considered radically atheistic for that era:

    ---
    Reposting so she can't dodge the truth:

    These (and there are hundreds more). Keep quoting your Christian revisionists - the facts will continue to annhilate them every time :

    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

    And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    "Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America." -
    Common Sense, January 10, 1776
    -Thomas Paine

    Reason and Ignorance, the opposites of each other, influence the great bulk of mankind. If either of these can be rendered sufficiently extensive in a country, the machinery of government goes easily on. Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man: Being An Answer To Mr. Burke's Attack On The French Revolution, Part the First, Conclusion

    To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Crisis

    It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
    -- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine (which contains no pagination or source citations)


    His statement is false, as the above quotes (among many others) prove. Many of the founders were not Christians - they were diests or atheists, and even those who claimed to be Christian considered Christian fundamentalism to be evil, and founded this country on the principles of the enightenment and the Age of Reason.


    Done. You're welcome.

    I'm sorry if our Founders and the values that they founded this great country on offend you and your fellow America-hating Christian revistionists. If you hate this country and it's values, you're free to move to Saudi Arabia or some nation that better reflects your "values".

    Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

    Rape in the Bible

    ---
    Victory. B)

  7. #137
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Look, can we all agree that sometimes, some of the founders said bad things about religion, while sometimes, some said things that were good?

    Let's try to avoid the lengthy copy-pastes that just talk past each other.
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  8. #138
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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toothpicvic View Post
    These (and there are hundreds more). Keep quoting your Christian revisionists - the facts will continue to annhilate them every time :

    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

    The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

    Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

    And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

    -Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

    "Mingling religion with politics may be disavowed and reprobated by every inhabitant of America." -
    Common Sense, January 10, 1776
    -Thomas Paine

    Reason and Ignorance, the opposites of each other, influence the great bulk of mankind. If either of these can be rendered sufficiently extensive in a country, the machinery of government goes easily on. Reason obeys itself; and Ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man: Being An Answer To Mr. Burke's Attack On The French Revolution, Part the First, Conclusion

    To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.
    -- Thomas Paine, The Crisis
    None of this proves that "most Founders were atheists or Deists". You quoted Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. That's it. I've already said Thomas Jefferson was a Deist. Not sure about Paine. I'm thinking he was an atheist.

    You have failed to say anything about.....
    Washington
    Adams
    Madison
    Franklin
    Sam Adams
    Hamilton
    Hancock
    Patrick Henry
    John Jay
    George Mason
    Benjamin Rush
    Daniel Webster
    Noah Webster

    I'll wait for your dissertation on the religions of these Founders as well.


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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?There's fair use rules on this forum. I suggest everyone in this thread start reviewing them, and quick, because beyond this point action will be taken.

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    Re: Do you think this country was founded upon Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Look, can we all agree that sometimes, some of the founders said bad things about religion, while sometimes, some said things that were good?

    Let's try to avoid the lengthy copy-pastes that just talk past each other.
    I think it's important to let the Founders speak in their own words. Sure, some really didn't like "church" as it were. Many Christians nowadays don't like organized religion either. That doesn't mean they don't believe in God or the divinity of Christ.


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