View Poll Results: Should we decrease the size of the U.S. armed forces

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  • Yes, by a substantial amount

    18 38.30%
  • Yes, but only a small amount

    11 23.40%
  • No

    12 25.53%
  • We should increase the size of our armed forces.

    6 12.77%
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Thread: Should we trim down our Military????

  1. #21
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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    About 50 Billion is directly identifiable as healthcare expense, 117 billion to morale and welfare which are indirectly healthcare programs. Neither of these address salary and training of military healthcare professionals which comes from a different budget as well as maintenance and operation of military hospitals, which comes from facilities budgets. Further hospital ship and field hospitals come from expeditionary budgets. I'm not going to do all this math for you, because it's just a waste of time, suffice it to say a few Google searches will get you the info you need. As far as the pay raise, President Obama proposes a 1.4% pay raise for fy2011. It won't be to hard for you to figure out how that holds up to past military pay raises. you might also want to look into the military to civilian pay gap....see what that tells ya. That's about as much as I'm going to give you as "evidence to support my false assertions." I am a little amused that you paid ZERO attention to
    the personnel toll our troops are experiencing, and jumped on the budget claims without actually looking into it.
    what i have focused on is misrepresentation in your previous post and your inability to provide documentation of those false assertions despite your insistence above that such verification is but a few mouse clicks away
    i continue to call BS on your patently false points
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  2. #22
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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what i have focused on is misrepresentation in your previous post and your inability to provide documentation of those false assertions despite your insistence above that such verification is but a few mouse clicks away
    i continue to call BS on your patently false points
    Well, you know what they say...ignorance is bliss.

  3. #23
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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    About 50 Billion is directly identifiable as healthcare expense, 117 billion to morale and welfare which are indirectly healthcare programs. Neither of these address salary and training of military healthcare professionals which comes from a different budget as well as maintenance and operation of military hospitals, which comes from facilities budgets. Further hospital ship and field hospitals come from expeditionary budgets. I'm not going to do all this math for you, because it's just a waste of time, suffice it to say a few Google searches will get you the info you need. As far as the pay raise, President Obama proposes a 1.4% pay raise for fy2011. It won't be to hard for you to figure out how that holds up to past military pay raises. you might also want to look into the military to civilian pay gap....see what that tells ya. That's about as much as I'm going to give you as "evidence to support my false assertions." I am a little amused that you paid ZERO attention to the personnel toll our troops are experiencing, and jumped on the budget claims without actually looking into it.
    There are reasons why it is important to document claims. It is also important to understand some perspective. Let's look at an actual source on your claim about the "civilian pay gap" and the proposed military pay raise: MOAA: Military Officers Association of AmericaMilitary Pay Raise Gap

    First thing to note is this:

    In 1999, Congress acted to set military pay raises at ECI plus .5% each year for the period 2000 to 2006. Congress subsequently authorized higher pay raises in 2000, 2001, and 2002, including extra "targeted" increases for members with specific grade and longevity combinations (mostly mid-grade and career NCOs and officers).

    In 2007 through 2010, Congress continued to provide raises in excess of the ECI in the interest of continuing to close the gap. For 2010, Congress called for a 3.4% raise -- .5% higher than the Administration's ECI-based budget request.
    ECI = Employment Cost Index, which is basically measuring the gap between military and civilian jobs.

    Obama's proposed pay increase was based on the ECI. Why was the proposed pay increase so small? Because civilian pay did not go up much. Now, let's look at the whole picture over the course of time. The highest comparability gap was in 1998 and 1999, when it was 13.5 %. Today, it is 2.4 %. Last year it was 2.9 %, which is the level that Obama's proposed military pay raise would have reduced only trivially(remember, ECI + .5 %). In other words, with military pay very close to civilian pay, and civilian pay not going up much, and people making a big deal out of spending, Obama proposed giving a raise slightly higher than civilian pay went up.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Well, you know what they say...ignorance is bliss.
    You know what else they say: irony is amusing.

    Document your claims. They seem false.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Apples, and oranges. Defense spending is 23 % of the Federal budget, and far and away the largest discretionary spending item.

    Where is welfare and other social spending besides SS/Medicare? Under "other mandatory" and "other discretionary"?

    Social spending of various sorts, and miscellanous pork and BS, are probably around double the military budget.

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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    There are reasons why it is important to document claims. It is also important to understand some perspective. Let's look at an actual source on your claim about the "civilian pay gap" and the proposed military pay raise: MOAA: Military Officers Association of AmericaMilitary Pay Raise Gap

    First thing to note is this:



    ECI = Employment Cost Index, which is basically measuring the gap between military and civilian jobs.

    Obama's proposed pay increase was based on the ECI. Why was the proposed pay increase so small? Because civilian pay did not go up much. Now, let's look at the whole picture over the course of time. The highest comparability gap was in 1998 and 1999, when it was 13.5 %. Today, it is 2.4 %. Last year it was 2.9 %, which is the level that Obama's proposed military pay raise would have reduced only trivially(remember, ECI + .5 %). In other words, with military pay very close to civilian pay, and civilian pay not going up much, and people making a big deal out of spending, Obama proposed giving a raise slightly higher than civilian pay went up.
    You're not paying much attention to the fact that the military pay raises throughout the Clinton administration were consistently lower than civilian sector pay raises resulting in a larger gap that Bush administration attempted to narrow. (reference is CBO) President Obama's 1.4% percent pay raise will re open that gap. Further, reenlistment bonuses have been drastically reduced or eliminated this year and are expected to go down further next year.

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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Where is welfare and other social spending besides SS/Medicare? Under "other mandatory" and "other discretionary"?

    Social spending of various sorts, and miscellanous pork and BS, are probably around double the military budget.
    SS and Medicare/medicaid are, I believe, considered nondiscressionary.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You know what else they say: irony is amusing.

    Document your claims. They seem false.
    The DOD budget is readily available to all.

  9. #29
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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    We could dramatically reduce the budget while improving readiness if we could reform our grossly corrupt and inefficient procurement method. The f-22 raptor was built in 44 different states purely to give pork to every congresscritter so they would vote for it. There are only a tiny number of players who get every contract and cost overruns are the norm for every project. I'd say we need to force competition into the industry. Using off-the-shell commercial products or license built foreign designs will require the pricing be competitive with reality rather than simply the only game in town.

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    Re: Should we trim down our Military????

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    You're not paying much attention to the fact that the military pay raises throughout the Clinton administration were consistently lower than civilian sector pay raises resulting in a larger gap that Bush administration attempted to narrow. (reference is CBO) President Obama's 1.4% percent pay raise will re open that gap. Further, reenlistment bonuses have been drastically reduced or eliminated this year and are expected to go down further next year.
    If you want to make it a partisan thing, which you seem to do, you will notice that the gap started most noticeably under Bush the elder(when I served, and when it was not uncommon to have military people with families getting food stamps). Damn Clinton continuing to do things as the Republicans did. The bill which mandated pay raises above the ECI was from the Clinton era, and signed by...Clinton. Even when the bill expired, the democratic congress continued to give raises above what would have been mandated by the old bill, as they did this year.

    A raise that is over the ECI, as the Obama proposed raise was, will lower the pay gap, not open it. Civilian pay went up very little in 2009, which is why the proposed pay raise for the military was small. Facts are good, and I supplied a linked source for mine.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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