View Poll Results: Experimenting with Education

Voters
29. You may not vote on this poll
  • Good Idea

    11 37.93%
  • Bad Idea

    10 34.48%
  • "other" Idea

    4 13.79%
  • Ethical

    6 20.69%
  • Not Ethical

    5 17.24%
  • "other" ethical

    4 13.79%
  • Other

    5 17.24%
  • Rootabega

    8 27.59%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 52

Thread: Education Experimentation

  1. #31
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: Education Experimentation

    The payment/incentive idea has some merit.

    But it won't work in all situations equally.

    That's why I voted for the poll options Good Idea, "other" ethical, Other, and of course, Rootabega.

    I think it is definitely a good idea to constantly experiment and explore ever better methods of teaching children and adults.

    As to the ethics, I chose "other" Ethical because it would depend on the specific experiment in question.

    The other "Other" that I voted for is just in case I think of something that doesn't fit in another category, and I voted for Rootabega just for the hell of it.

    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  2. #32
    Clown Prince of Politics
    Psychoclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hiding from the voices in my head.
    Last Seen
    11-25-17 @ 12:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,738

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    It's a bad idea, an education should be treasured, and made the most of. Not something that kids do only to make a quick buck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    The best way to instill a love of learning, is to do it early in life.
    As say this because this is what I've done with my son.

    He enjoys learning for the sake of learning more.
    I believe children instinctively have a love for learning. Children are naturally inquisitive and want to learn about the world around them. But what most children don't love is the way schools operate.

    When I was a kid, I read to learn on my own all the time. I loved learning about dinosaurs and space. I gobbled up biographies on interesting historical figures - Julius Ceasar, Adolf Hitler, Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Thomas Edison. I had an entire collection of kid friendly condensed classic literature - Moby Dick, a collection of Edgar Allen Poe stories, David Copperfield, Oliver Twist, The Count of Montecristo, Huckleberry Finn. And this was in addition to lots of pleasure reading - comics, mysteries, choose your adventure books.

    But I hated school. It was boring and often pointless. Nothing seemed more pointless than answering questions at the end of a chapter I just read using full sentance quotes from the chapter. Or diagraming a sentance, a skill I still have yet to find a real life use for. Many schools suck the love of learning out of kids by being so drab, dull, and repetitive. I did great on most tests, but had no desire or motivation to the pointless day to day assignments and my grades suffered accordingly.

    Even now, as I've gone back to school for a degree, I don't love all of my classes. I view a good portion of them as a complete waste of time and money and they nothing more than simply a means to an end - a little piece of paper that will let me go into my chosen profession, which ironically is in education.

    Quote Originally Posted by fredmertz View Post
    I'd say there is no one answer. Each child is different. If you are trying to push a kid w/ good grades who tries a little but could try more, perhaps this is the right motivation... so long as you believe they already understand the importance of getting good grades. But for a child who really just doesn't care, if you offer them money, then getting that money will be their only motivation for getting better grades - which shouldn't be the true driving force. It should just be a reward for succeeding with a more 'true' driving force: Their future.
    Kids suck at realizing the long term consequences of their decisions. Their brains are not yet full developed and "the future" is too abstract and vague for most of them to factor into their decision making process. And besides, what's wrong with doing something just for money? I go to a mind numbingly stupid job that bores me to tears and I do it only for the money. If I didn't need the money, I'd happily never darken their door again. Most people only go to work because they get a paycheck at the end of the week. A tiny percentage of us actually enjoy our professions. If we're going to let school continue to be boring, menial, and soul sucking then by all means we should pay kids to go. It certainly prepares them for many of the careers we all have as adults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    You'd may be surprised but parents are the absolute number 1 reason of why a child does well in school.
    Parents have to believe that education is a worthwhile endeavor and children take their cues from the parent.
    Absolutely, 100% true. In my own experience in doing class observations, I got to sit on some parent teacher conferences. And the kids that struggled had parents that either didn't bother to show up at all or proved to be complete idiots themselves who couldn't be trusted to properly train a dog, let along raise a kid. On the flip side, the kids who did well had parents who were obviously involved in their children's education and wanted to know about what was going on in the class room and how they could help.

    Unfortunately, more and more parents are disengaged or even hostile to their child's education. Thus schools need to try and innovate ways to somewhat compensate.
    Last edited by Psychoclown; 06-16-10 at 07:35 PM.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  3. #33
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:55 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Unfortunately, more and more parents are disengaged or even hostile to their child's education. Thus schools need to try and innovate ways to somewhat compensate.
    Start paying the parents to be interested?
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  4. #34
    Sage
    samsmart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    10,316
    Blog Entries
    37

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    It's a bad idea, an education should be treasured, and made the most of. Not something that kids do only to make a quick buck.
    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    in later life, which could lead to unemployment for some, and perhaps bring about a "what's in it for me" sort of mentality, which could not onlyu make 'em lazy, but leave altruism laying in the dust.
    CEOs don't manage corporations out of altruism. Doctors don't treat, operate on, or give prescriptions to patients out of altruism. Utility companies don't provide water and power to homes out of altruism. Nurses in retirement homes don't give care to our elderly out of altruism. Farmers don't grow food out of altruism.

    In the real world, everything we do is for money. Everybody needs skills in order to get a job to generate a revenue of money in order to pay for essentials such as shelter, food, utilities, transportation, and luxuries that they cannot provide for themselves and need to pay others to provide for them. This is the basics of our modern economic system.

    Children don't learn this, however. They go to school and they don't know why and they're told they need to know all these things and need to have all these experiences and all these skills but they don't realize why. The reason why they don't realize why is because they're too young to understand and they don't get any immediate reward.

    However, paying children to go to school will give them an immediate reward to learn the desired skills and knowledge society expects of them. It will cause them to apply themselves and get immediate tangible rewards for applying themselves rather than sitting back and being passive in their education.

    Also, it will be paying children for their labor. They are laboring in spending time to do their homework problems rather than spending their time is other pursuits, such as playing video games or athletics or watching TV and movies. Since, in the real world, people are expected to produce a resource in the form of money for their labor, children should be able to as well.

    I think conservatives would especially like such an idea as this, as it will teach children and teenagers good business sense. Also, if such a plan is to be implemented, I think government-provided for programs to students should be reduced in order to provide the funds that will go directly to the students who will have the free choice to spend their money however they choose.

    Another benefit of this is that it will start getting students to behave in school. Because they have a direct monetary benefit for getting good grades, they will have behaviors that help them get that direct monetary benefit for getting good grades. This includes shutting the hell up and listening and paying attention to the teachers who assign them their grades. Thus, they will be better behaved out of a sense of self-preservation in order to get rewards to buy their essentials and luxuries.

    I always hear about how we spend a fortune on students in this country and yet the education rates keep getting lower and lower and lower. That's because it's a lie. In truth, our nation spends a fortune on everyone and everything else but the students. We spend money on educators, on administrators, on supply and equipment and programs and services and computers. But not one penny goes directly to students. So I say let's have them earn some money for those students who apply themselves to get good grades. It'll reap better rewards than anything else we've tried.

  5. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    02-12-11 @ 12:32 PM
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    939

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Good idea until proven otherwise.

  6. #36
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Child Support : You will get legal problems for not complying
    Bills on Time : Many companies attach a penalty to late payments
    Garbage : A nonsmelly house is its own reward

    In all three cases, there are usually fairly immediate repercussions for not performing the right action. Education is different. Typically, you invest either 12 or 16 years into an education in order to get rewarded at the end of that time. That and combined with the fact that most children tend to not think like adults (and in many cases they cannot due to the fact that their brain is not fully formed until 22 or so) and delay gratification pretty much means you have a formula for nonoptimal achievement.

    Second of all, when I think about this, its kind of like training for adulthood. You wake up, go to work, do work, go home, get a paycheck. If done right, it could acclimate children into this sort of behavior and increase that sort of responsibility later on.
    You raise an interesting point.

    Punishments for failing to satisfy demands is always acceptable - but reward *for* satisfying demand? Why is that questionable to many people? That's interesting on a psychological level.

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart
    I always hear about how we spend a fortune on students in this country and yet the education rates keep getting lower and lower and lower. That's because it's a lie. In truth, our nation spends a fortune on everyone and everything else but the students. We spend money on educators, on administrators, on supply and equipment and programs and services and computers. But not one penny goes directly to students. So I say let's have them earn some money for those students who apply themselves to get good grades. It'll reap better rewards than anything else we've tried.
    I agree with this! I agree with your whole post, but especially this part. My school is such in need for "money for education" that they're hitting me up for money via fundraisers all the time. If that money would truly benefit my children by giving it DIRECTLY to my children then of course the obvious answer would be to give it DIRECTLY to my children - not to the school and in part to some non-school chocolate company.

    Especially if paying the student costs less - and produces better results - than Head Start programs or adjusting class sizes (=more teachers) then why not do it? Instead of falsifying grades and just scooting kids through school (as a school district in my state was actually caught doing) why not actually reward success and encourage stellar performance?

    When I was a kid/teen I could have done great - but an A or B wasn't worth it, to me. It meant nothing. Other than an A or B grade to make my parents happy there seemed to be no purpose at all - so I did other things, instead. I regret that *now* - all these years later - but why do we really have to go year after year *knowing* how kids think and what they value, and still insist that they must learn just because they're suppose to learn?
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 06-17-10 at 09:50 AM.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

  7. #37
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Side comment. I am noticing that the polling for this question is not falling on party or ideological lines. I think this is great and helps promote some real discussion. Overall, I hope more questions are asked in such a way that we get fewer talking points and more honest analysis.

  8. #38
    Sage
    jamesrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    A place where common sense exists
    Last Seen
    12-10-17 @ 09:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    31,067

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Child Support : You will get legal problems for not complying
    Bills on Time : Many companies attach a penalty to late payments
    Garbage : A nonsmelly house is its own reward
    An educational equiviolent would be low wage job, homelessness, on welfare or in prison.

    In all three cases, there are usually fairly immediate repercussions for not performing the right action. Education is different. Typically, you invest either 12 or 16 years into an education in order to get rewarded at the end of that time. That and combined with the fact that most children tend to not think like adults (and in many cases they cannot due to the fact that their brain is not fully formed until 22 or so) and delay gratification pretty much means you have a formula for nonoptimal achievement.
    Then have bums, welfare recipients and prison inmates tell kids the downside to getting crappy grades in school. Not reward them with cash for something that they should already be doing.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #39
    Clown Prince of Politics
    Psychoclown's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hiding from the voices in my head.
    Last Seen
    11-25-17 @ 12:37 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    1,738

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Then have bums, welfare recipients and prison inmates tell kids the downside to getting crappy grades in school. Not reward them with cash for something that they should already be doing.
    Children are biologically incapable of fully understanding and appreciating the long term consequences of their decisions. Their brains are not full developed. Say that ten times before you post again so it has a chance to sink in.

    You can tell kids how important good grades are for their future. You can show them examples of how poor grades can lead to a poor life. But when it comes time for a child to decide "do I do my homework or not?" or "do I study for my test or not?" guess what, he's going to forget about all of your dire warnings. Heck the study itself shows how kids are not fully capable of thinking long term. The cases that had the best results had quick payoffs - weekly. As soon as I saw this, I thought to myself "I hope they provide some kind of immediate incentive rather than a reward at say the end of a semester, because kids forget about the end of the semester when deciding what to do today".

    So instead of having some idealized standard of what you want kids to be capable of, you should be focused on what kids are actually capable of. I don't understand conservatives opposing this. Conservatives love to gripe about how public schools suck and how throwing money at the problem isn't working. But here is a guy who is trying to find creative solutions that are cost effective and you immediately reject him on some vague idealistic basis that "kids should love learning" or "they should be doing this anyway".
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  10. #40
    Cheese
    Aunt Spiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Sasnakra
    Last Seen
    09-10-16 @ 06:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    28,433

    Re: Education Experimentation

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    Children are biologically incapable of fully understanding and appreciating the long term consequences of their decisions. Their brains are not full developed. Say that ten times before you post again so it has a chance to sink in.

    You can tell kids how important good grades are for their future. You can show them examples of how poor grades can lead to a poor life. But when it comes time for a child to decide "do I do my homework or not?" or "do I study for my test or not?" guess what, he's going to forget about all of your dire warnings. Heck the study itself shows how kids are not fully capable of thinking long term. The cases that had the best results had quick payoffs - weekly. As soon as I saw this, I thought to myself "I hope they provide some kind of immediate incentive rather than a reward at say the end of a semester, because kids forget about the end of the semester when deciding what to do today".

    So instead of having some idealized standard of what you want kids to be capable of, you should be focused on what kids are actually capable of. I don't understand conservatives opposing this. Conservatives love to gripe about how public schools suck and how throwing money at the problem isn't working. But here is a guy who is trying to find creative solutions that are cost effective and you immediately reject him on some vague idealistic basis that "kids should love learning" or "they should be doing this anyway".
    adding to the bolded:

    When obviously this isn't working out.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •