View Poll Results: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

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Thread: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

  1. #31
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    At that time, I'm sure they never imagined that we would be to a point where it is necessary to regulate the number of people who are coming into our country from other countries.
    I find that highly doubtful since it came after the rise and fall of the Know Nothing party and other Nativist movements in US history. We are simply recycling the same tired old arguments in US history and pretending that this time it's somehow different than the other few dozen times it's happened. It's not.

    The idea that we are now dealing with an immigration "problem" which never existed before is a complete farce. I have no idea where it comes from, but it's completely ludicrous.

    Just 7 years after the 14th amendment, the first federal immigration laws cropped up (targetting Chinese immigrants). They were deemed to be "bad" immigrants. This was when illegal immigration was invented in the US. So it wasn't a problem before then simply because it didn't exist before then.

    Another myth that people have is that immigrant groups of the past assimilated right away or some other such lunacy.

    They never did.

    Want some proof?

    Boston

    Which do you think changed more? The city that was once known for it's primarily Puritan/Protestant population and origins which is now known for being an Irish Catholic enclave that even has a sports team that uses a shamrock as their symbol, or the Irish Catholics that immigrated there?
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-17-10 at 03:04 PM.
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  2. #32
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I find that highly doubtful since it came after the rise and fall of the Know Nothing party and other Nativist movements in US history. We are simply recycling the same tired old arguments in US history and pretending that this time it's somehow different than the other few dozen times it's happened. It's not.

    The idea that we are now dealing with an immigration "problem" which never existed before is a complete farce. I have no idea where it comes from, but it's completely ludicrous.
    The level and impact is substantively different.

  3. #33
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    The level and impact is substantively different.
    Level wise, Boston gained 37,000 immigrants in 1847. There population before this was about 115,000.

    That's about a 33% increase in total population in just one year. This made about 25% of Boston's population immigrants.

    The impact of this was tremendous.

    Then look at New York. in 1847, they had a population pf about 350,000 natives, to which over 100,000 immigrants form Ireland and Germany were added in one year.

    During the famine, the Irish alone accounted for 650,000 immigrants to the US, which had a population of about 17 million in 1840 and 23 million in 1850.

    This represents about 4% of the total 1840 population of the US. That compares to the total estimated illegal population in the US today of about 11 million (with a population of about 300 million total)

    That's not including the influx of Germans who represented 32% of the total immigration between 1847 and 1854.

    This isn't talking about the number of immigrants who are currently here from years gone by. It's actually the numbers of immigrants who landed here over that time span.

    The rates today are, at worst, comparable to the mid 19th century, at best they were worse back then than they are today.
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  4. #34
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, its rather pathetic to compare what illigal immigrants are doign in this country now to what slaves went through. They're not equal, nor the same.

    Second, I'm not the one advocating returning to 1800's American law, you are.
    I agree that the illegal workers are not like the slaves. No human should ever again be subjected to slavery.


    So what? So they have problems. Great, lets see what ways under the law we can help them if you really care. Encourage citizens to donate money to charities whose aim is to help mexican families in mexico. Great. Them having problems doesn't mean they should get to violate U.S. Laws and then create an anchor to tug then attempt to go "see, see, you can't get rid of us, our kids a citizen! Granted, he's a citizen only because we utilized a loophole in the constitution after coming here illegally, breaking your laws, and showing no respect for your country."
    Most of what you state seems to be things that you have heard opposed to experience. We don't have to go back to 1800, 1985 will suffice. President Reagan granted an amnesty program to illegal workers that had been in the US for more than 5 years. Turn out was terrible. Some were afraid that it was a trap, but most simply did not want to become US citizens. They were Mexican citizens. That is what they wanted to be. Some opted for the program in hopes that they would receive a higher wage for their labor. They still planned to retire back home. They were simply working out of country. In the '80s I was a construction boomer. Work stopped in Texas, so I lived out of a suitcase for 3 years working in different States. I actually had a Police Officer in Nashville tell me that I should head back to Texas where I belonged and quit taking jobs from the Hillbillies. I told him that if the local boys can't keep up, it's their problem, not mine.


    Bull****. You and others keep repeating this with zero factual evidence of proof. You can't just state something and deem it so.

    A combination of securing the border, enforcing the laws on employers, and focused law enforcement for deportation is most definitely potentially possible and we'll never truly know unless we try it.



    Absolutely it'll fix some things....

    It'll fix the chances of them possibly being granted amnesty by reducing that chance because it will be one less bull**** thing that people with no respect for our laws can use to attempt to sway people based on not on logic, nor law, nor reason, but on pure emotion.

    It'll remove an incentive for them coming into America illegally, as they'll no longer be able to do it and then pop out a kid to garauntee their kid citizenship and to give themselves something they can use to try and fight their deportation.



    Yes, amazing that, I'm mad at criminals. Wonders of all wonders. And god forbid, I want criminals to be punished. WHO'D HAVE THOUGHT OF SUCH A RIDICULOUS NOTION!?!!!
    I read in the Dallas Morning News today at lunch that deportation housings are going to be nicer places to stay, as opposed to the prisons where they are currently being held. The guard union is complaining, saying that "many are probably drug dealers and criminals. This will result in a more dangerous situation for the detained as well as for the guards". They sound like you.
    Sorry, I don't go to church.

    But thanks for the ignorant insult. Here's a wonderful thought. Aim your idiotic anger at their criminal parents.
    I also do not attend Church. I didn't mean to have "idiotic anger". I shall try to keep it at bay.
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    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  5. #35
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    I would contend there's still some significant differences between then and now that are the root of some of the issues Tuck.

    For one, while America is still technically a "young" country, it has experienced a number of generations throughout its time thus far (about 12 since the founding). With each passing generation in the country more and more of a societal culture and identity has developed and the more the country has essentially found "itself". In the earliest years of the country we were a frontier land, filled largely by people who were fresh into the country or born within a small few generations. The culture and identity of the country was still forming, much like its borders and cities in and of themselves were still in a formative period.

    The time period you're talking about is three to four generations into the countries existance, compared to 12 currently. Stirring up an already cloudy and chaotic situation is different than doing it to one that is far more established. To give a sports analogy, if they had gone into the Panther's or Jaguars 4 years into their existance and tried a major change in their power structure, management structure, etc it'd likely work reasonably well with people being reasonably open to it as the team was new and fresh to a point and experimentation to find an identity wouldn't be out of the question. However going into say, the Steelers organization, and tryin the same thing would likely be met with far harsher reactions because at this point its been long established and working reasonably well without a great NEED for a massive change of culture or upheaval.

    I think the attempt to compare the past to the present as if they're equal situations is to ignore the plethora of changes societally, culturally, and logistically to where we were at that time.

    You're correct its not simply about the numbers. Its the lack of a common language. Its the over crowding of already crowded areas. Its the reduction in service and seeming quality of life that its seemed to have imparted in many places. Its the strain its putting on our various government systems. Its the wanton violation of the law while there are others willingly and patiently waiting their turn. Its the increasing encroachment of a foreign culture into not localized locations but country wide.

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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Funny how the subject of illegal immigration turns a lot of progressives into mouth-foaming idiots.
    Who rattled your rusty chain, cheerleader?
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  7. #37
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    I agree that the illegal workers are not like the slaves. No human should ever again be subjected to slavery.
    I agree,... but I would like to play devils advocate for a moment.

    What about humans that we can collectively deny are humans or persons?

    Can we enslave them?
    Last edited by Chuz Life; 06-17-10 at 04:43 PM.

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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuz Life View Post
    I agree,... but I would like to play devils advocate for a moment.

    What about humans that we can collectively deny are humans or persons?

    Can enslave them?
    Go back to the abortion forum where you belong. Do you really think of everything as an abortion issue?
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The systems that ensure freedom and liberty are breaking down and fundamentalism is growing. Nobody is righteous anymore.


  9. #39
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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    I agree that the illegal workers are not like the slaves. No human should ever again be subjected to slavery.
    Agreed

    Most of what you state seems to be things that you have heard opposed to experience. We don't have to go back to 1800, 1985 will suffice. President Reagan granted an amnesty program to illegal workers that had been in the US for more than 5 years. Turn out was terrible. Some were afraid that it was a trap, but most simply did not want to become US citizens. They were Mexican citizens. That is what they wanted to be. Some opted for the program in hopes that they would receive a higher wage for their labor. They still planned to retire back home. They were simply working out of country. In the '80s I was a construction boomer. Work stopped in Texas, so I lived out of a suitcase for 3 years working in different States. I actually had a Police Officer in Nashville tell me that I should head back to Texas where I belonged and quit taking jobs from the Hillbillies. I told him that if the local boys can't keep up, it's their problem, not mine.
    Are you saying the cop called them "hillbillies" or just placing bigotry on full display?

    And yes, Reagan did do that. And it was a massive mistake on his part. Why's that? Because he actually trusted that a "compromise" was going to happen when it never was going to and is the exact reason I will never, ever get behind any "path to citizenship" package unless its time delayed to start AFTER federally mandated enforcement of our laws is actually actively being done and with penalities if it does not continue.

    Amnesty was supposed to be granted. Along with this it was supposed to be illegal to knowingly hire or recruit illegal immigrants. Guess which of those two things was heavily enforced and which has been mostly ignored and not bothered with?

    Guess what, they want to be citizens of Mexico. Wonderful. Sign up for an actual temporary work visa and come on over. If not, you're illegal, you're a criminal, and your ass should be found and kicked out. If you're a repeat offender you should go into a bare necessities prison.

    I read in the Dallas Morning News today at lunch that deportation housings are going to be nicer places to stay, as opposed to the prisons where they are currently being held. The guard union is complaining, saying that "many are probably drug dealers and criminals. This will result in a more dangerous situation for the detained as well as for the guards". They sound like you.
    Actually, ALL of them are criminals if they're in jail because they're here illegally. Why? Because they're here ILLEGALLY. Second, what you speak of is not an issue of immigration but an issue of our detention facilities, primarily that they're "nice places to stay" in any way shape or form to begin with.

    There's a really, really simple thing they can do if they don't want to be considered criminals or possibly detained.

    Don't illegally enter the country.

    Don't break the law.

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    Re: Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?

    Moderator's Warning:
    Should citizenship be denied to U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants?This thread is nothing about abortion. Cease that derail attempt immedietely

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