View Poll Results: Decriminalize Drugs Or Bloody Drug War?

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  • Decriminalize Drugs

    31 33.70%
  • Bloody Drug WAR for Cartels to Kill and Make Billions of Profits by Selling Amounts of Drugs

    55 59.78%
  • Other- Explain

    6 6.52%
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Thread: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

  1. #51
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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I think abuse is a big enough problem while they're still illegal - it would probably grow with legalization.
    Numerous studies have failed to demonstrate any correlation between drug laws and the rate of drug use. Assertions that drug use might or would increase if drugs are legalized must erroneously ignore this fact.

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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Numerous studies have failed to demonstrate any correlation between drug laws and the rate of drug use. Assertions that drug use might or would increase if drugs are legalized must erroneously ignore this fact.
    I realize that and I'm aware of a few studies as well as Portugal's venture (thanks to Deuce). I don't think all society's are the same nor all cultures and I continue to be cynical as to how American society specifically - both urban and rural, would or could handle such legalization. I also cringe at the potential fallout on taxpayers given pressure by society and political groups to "help" these poor drug addicts who could not handle such responsibility or freedoms.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I realize that and I'm aware of a few studies as well as Portugal's venture (thanks to Deuce). I don't think all society's are the same nor all cultures and I continue to be cynical as to how American society specifically - both urban and rural, would or could handle such legalization.
    Some of those studies pertain to the rate of marijuana use in U.S. states that have decriminalized marijuana, so these cultural differences in American society, whatever they may be, do not appear to have the impact you suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I also cringe at the potential fallout on taxpayers given pressure by society and political groups to "help" these poor drug addicts who could not handle such responsibility or freedoms.
    As opposed to taxpayer dollars going toward incarceration, which does absolutely nothing to address the addict's problems? Sales tax on drugs should go toward treatment options in order to minimize the burden on non-using taxpayers. I totally agree that you and I should not have to pay for other people's stupidity, they should pay for their own stupidity and leave us out of it. But if we have to pay something, I'd rather that money go toward something that actually has a chance of addressing the problem.

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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I realize that and I'm aware of a few studies as well as Portugal's venture (thanks to Deuce). I don't think all society's are the same nor all cultures and I continue to be cynical as to how American society specifically - both urban and rural, would or could handle such legalization. I also cringe at the potential fallout on taxpayers given pressure by society and political groups to "help" these poor drug addicts who could not handle such responsibility or freedoms.
    How much tax money is going to Alcoholics Anonymous now?

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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    As opposed to taxpayer dollars going toward incarceration, which does absolutely nothing to address the addict's problems? Sales tax on drugs should go toward treatment options in order to minimize the burden on non-using taxpayers. I totally agree that you and I should not have to pay for other people's stupidity, they should pay for their own stupidity and leave us out of it. But if we have to pay something, I'd rather that money go toward something that actually has a chance of addressing the problem.
    I know - fiscally and politically I have no good answer on this subject. There are good arguments on both sides of the issue. It boils down to morals and societal values and those are much more grey areas than the previous political/fiscal views. My morals and values were passed to me by my parents and I decided which to keep and not to keep - and all of them are saying "no" to the legalization because we as humans cannot handle it. That might be the wrong answer but it's the only one I have.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    My morals and values were passed to me by my parents and I decided which to keep and not to keep - and all of them are saying "no" to the legalization because we as humans cannot handle it. That might be the wrong answer but it's the only one I have.
    Totally understandable, and much respect for the way you rationalize it.

    Think of it this way: Legalization is not about giving up on the drug problem or ending the War on Drugs. Quite to the contrary, it's about addressing the drug problem by changing the way we've been waging the War on Drugs. You can't solve a problem until you've correctly identified it, and the current War on Drugs mischaracterizes drug abuse/addiction as a criminal problem when its true nature is a medical problem. Legalization would remove that mis-diagnosis from our policies and open more avenues for addressing it as a medical problem. I think everyone has the same goal of minimal drug abuse/addiction, we just have different opinions on the best way to achieve that goal.

    EDIT: I should add that legalization by itself will not increase or decrease drug use. It has no known effect, we already know this. What legalization will do is remove the problems caused by prohibition. Education and deglamorization will decrease the rate of use (re: tobacco use rates over the last 40 years).
    Last edited by Binary_Digit; 06-17-10 at 08:43 PM.

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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Binary_Digit View Post
    Totally understandable, and much respect for the way you rationalize it.

    Think of it this way: Legalization is not about giving up on the drug problem or ending the War on Drugs. Quite to the contrary, it's about addressing the drug problem by changing the way we've been waging the War on Drugs. You can't solve a problem until you've correctly identified it, and the current War on Drugs mischaracterizes drug abuse/addiction as a criminal problem when its true nature is a medical problem. Legalization would remove that mis-diagnosis from our policies and open more avenues for addressing it as a medical problem. I think everyone has the same goal of minimal drug abuse/addiction, we just have different opinions on the best way to achieve that goal.

    EDIT: I should add that legalization by itself will not increase or decrease drug use. It has no known effect, we already know this. What legalization will do is remove the problems caused by prohibition. Education and deglamorization will decrease the rate of use (re: tobacco use rates over the last 40 years).
    I'm wondering - is there a way to test this? Now I'd support actually putting some tax money aside and actually testing this in a few cities and a few rural area's for a year or two and gathering data. It might actually be a sound investment as the savings of fighting the war on drugs may be substantial and as was already said, some money from the sale of these drugs would go into treatment for those who abuse it.

    The uphill battle will be the morals and values angle. People like me who maybe can rationalize it if they give it enough time will have a hard time swallowing when it comes down to seeing their kids go off to a party and the thought of them legally getting pounded or OD on a now legal substance. The outcry will be horrendous. We'll see a definate resurgance of the Women's Temperance movement and probably others as well.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    The bottom line is that criminalizing drugs has not resulted in less drug use. If the purpose of drug laws are to save us from ourselves by giving government the power to choose which substances we may or may not ingest, then that purpose has not been realized. Of course, most laws that try to save us from ourselves by giving more power to an authoritarian government haven't worked, so the failure of the war on drugs shouldn't have been a surprise.

    The result of forty years of combating drug use by prohibition has been violent drug wars, violent gangs supported by drug money, an insurgency in Colombia funded by cocaine, the Taliban in Afganistan being funded by heroin, prisons full of drug offenders, a de facto war on our southern border, hundreds of billions if not trillions spent for nothing, and no less drug abuse. It is past time to try a different approach to discouraging people from abusing drugs.
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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    54 votes for bloody drug war! I love polls here sometimes.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Decriminalize Drugs VS Bloody Drug War

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Exactly my point - the cartels will still be *there* and *together* but they will just function differently. . . they will have something else to focus on if 1 of their cash crops is made legal - it will just shift. Maybe it won't, I might be wrong. But it seems that that once someone only knows how to live by crime then they continue to do so - no matter what.
    So, your argument against legalizing drugs is that criminals will continue to resort to crime after it's happened?

    Ah - see - I think it highly unwise to have parents doped up (legally) on lsd running around and gutting their children, thinking they're the devil. . .that seems like a situation we should avoid, not promote.
    Why do you assume that drugs laws serve to prevent or even mitigate these types of occurrences? What evidence is there to suggest that drug laws are actually effective in preventing otherwise normal parents from taking LSD and savagely murdering their children?

    To me, it seems your logic is analogous to the magic rock that keeps tigers at bay. You don't see any tigers around, do you?

    Would it make a difference? In some ways, sure.
    Compare the prohibition-era mafia to the post-prohibition mafia.

    How much? We don't know.
    What will these cartels do for a living instead? Will they just settle down and become responsible citizens? Doubtful, why would they? They'd just go to something else, for something else. Their main purpose is money - and if they aren't making it as much they'll just get into another ring of business.

    That's my thought, anyway - but because we've never legalized something of this caliper before we don't have a compass on it.
    What's your point, exactly? Of course many criminals will continue resorting to crime in the absence of drug laws. I don't think anyone has argued otherwise.

    The main difference will be the absence of astronomical profit motives, which will eliminate the substantial financial means at the disposal of these criminal psychopaths. Instead of financing multi-billion dollar operations, they will be scraping by a living resorting to petty crime.

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