View Poll Results: Wellfare... Is it un-American

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Thread: Is wellfare today un-American?

  1. #51
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    There is no way that welfare system can sustain the welfare needs of society, thus this point is kind of moot.
    As long as welfare demonstrates an ability to help people rise above their circumstances, then it is a useful tool. You may only wish to focus on the abusers of the system but many people raising families rely on that government check in order to make ends meet so that their children can continue to focus on school instead of focusing on domestic duties.

    My point is far from moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Each individual is responsible for their savings and spending, not you, not I and especially not the state.
    We all live in a nation and a community, which means we have an obligation to help one another. I realize you didn't choose where you were born but you definitely have a choice over where you live and paying taxes. If you don't like it, you can move, or simply stop paying taxes and face the consequences. I'm sure there are plenty of pet projects you support through tax dollars that I wouldn't support. You just have to take the whole kitten and kabootle.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Well, I never said they would, I said it is wrong for you or the state to force me to give. The Salvation Army pulled in about 26 million alone in 2009 by contributions and that is just one charity group and people would not donate enough.
    By that logic it is wrong to tax people at all, but taxation is necessary for the health of the nation. How many times does it have to be said?

    26 million is nothing. The Salvation Army is a good organization I support them for their local initiatives, but they cannot carry the whole nation nor should they be expected to. That is the job of the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    It's not a twist, if I gave to charity by myself well, that is my choice but, when you have government force my hand then it’s stealing. I also never claimed a state without welfare would be a utopia. There is a better way, and maybe one day you’ll see.
    Why stop at social programs then? Why not just come out and say that it's wrong to tax people at all?

    Why should your pet peeve get exempted from taxation and mine doesn't?

    Learn to live with it because it's not going anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    The state has already won; they got you believing you need them.
    lol...
    So you're a mind reader now too? Piss off.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Welfare is not only wrong but, it makes things worse.
    What makes things worse are people who think in black and white terms, and think that all things either fall into column A or column B. As I said before, even fiscal conservatives know that welfare is necessary. But you're a libertarian, which, in fiscal terms, is even more ridiculous. The system can only go back to local levels of small taxation and spending if the current system collapses. Until then, it has just gotten too big and out of control. It is clear that both parties intend to spend the nation into the gutter.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    If people on government assisted welfare were not allowed to vote, this would prevent most of the nonsense. Since they can, it creates an abusive situation where one set of politicians (the ones who do not represent the producers and creators of wealth) pander to and expand the welfare class

    that is why the situation is so bad. People don't gain political power and the wealth that comes from it (look at the kennedys and the gores) by encouraging private charity. They gain political power by using the wealth of some to buy the votes of the many
    George Bernard Shaw said it. I use a slightly altered versionin my signature line: "Governments who rob from Peter to pay Paul will always have support - from Paul." I believe the United States is on a dangerous precipice. The next several generations will tell the tale.

    So, what DO we do? To me, the answer's got to have something to do with "nothing's for nothing." There's got to be some kind of accountability. Welfare moms can't just be stay-at-home moms and collect their checks. We've got to find a way to day-care their kids and insist that moms give back somehow. Public service? Teacher's Aids? School Hall Chaperones? Daycare Workers? I don't know what -- that's a problem for us to solve. But something. That something has got to include finishing one's education and learning skills. Half-day for each, perhaps.

    We simply cannot have too many more years of the job objective of some teen-aged girls being that of "having a baby and getting on public assistance." We just can't afford it. I would bet that the greatest majority of people in this country would support a program like that. So, tell me. Why don't we have it?

    That's just one example. But that's where my mind goes.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 07-23-10 at 11:44 PM.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    I agree that politicians do target those that are government assisted as potential votes. However, I believe Medicare is a problem with your solution. A vast number of Americans benefit from Medicaid. What do we do about that?
    Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  4. #54
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    If people on government assisted welfare were not allowed to vote, this would prevent most of the nonsense. Since they can, it creates an abusive situation where one set of politicians (the ones who do not represent the producers and creators of wealth) pander to and expand the welfare class

    that is why the situation is so bad. People don't gain political power and the wealth that comes from it (look at the kennedys and the gores) by encouraging private charity. They gain political power by using the wealth of some to buy the votes of the many
    A lot of people vote because of how it will further their personal beliefs or cause - wealthy or poor, black or white, religious or non religious, pro gay-rights or anti gay-rights - on we can go with this list. Yes, people will or won't vote because of how it will personally help them. Not everyone - but many do and will and *will always do so* - there is *no way* to actually end it completely. But you can regulate and control it - or at least try to.

    Example of regulation and control: limited personal-funding to political candidates . . . it's capped off - Chuck Norris can't throw a million into Huckabee's pocket even if he wanted to. . . He could *figure* out a way around this but he'd have to use his noggin to do it, which deters and hinders the notion.

    However - when you're discussing cutting-off people from voting based on their financial situation (etc) then you're encroaching on elitism and prejudice. . .and people being punished for something like their husband running off with another woman - or a man who's wife died in childbirth and he now has to take care of his other kids without her.

    Our political and voting system was designed *to be* a popularity contest. That's the purpose. That's the point. *If* they want to continue in office they must make us, their constituents, happy.

    So Conservatives, Republicans, Liberals and Democrats - etc - shouldn't be focused on driving the opposition into the ground or deterring *them* from exercising their right to vote. They should focus on expounding on the support of *their* constituents.

    From the Conservative Camp I've heard a lot of "I don't support that" over the years - but they have no viable alternatives to very serious issues that people *do* vote on - like Welfare. You can't just say "I want to END welfare!" and expect people to take you seriously or not be angry. You MUST have a viable option - a solid plan - which doesn't treat people as 'lesser than' - but rather gives them the ability and knowledge to *get* and education *get* a job and *get* off of welfare. . . you must understand their problems, provide them a viable solution and help them out - if you don't then you'll piss them off. And an angry constituent = a vote for your opponent. It's just that simple, that basic and crude but that's what they chose to do when they wrote up the system and assigned the rules.

    When it comes to welfare in general we're not necessarily dealing with a "bad idea" - we're dealing with a "way of life which has been around for DECADES" and if you want to change that it *must* happen slowly and *not* just rip the rug of lifestyle out from underneath everyone.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 07-23-10 at 11:48 PM. Reason: edit for clarity
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  5. #55
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    As long as welfare demonstrates an ability to help people rise above their circumstances, then it is a useful tool. You may only wish to focus on the abusers of the system but many people raising families rely on that government check in order to make ends meet so that their children can continue to focus on school instead of focusing on domestic duties.
    I will have to disagree. I will not support theft no matter if the theft is used for good. I will not support a program that is unfair and destructive to everyone.
    Your original point is moot because I can easily use it to support my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    We all live in a nation and a community, which means we have an obligation to help one another.
    I will not support a forced obligation, I mean, do I got to support the people living on my street likes children? No! I do not have to take the whole ‘kitten and kabootle’ and you should not either. I know you are from Canada, but America fought a war against this type of thing (taxes).
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    By that logic it is wrong to tax people at all, but taxation is necessary for the health of the nation. How many times does it have to be said?
    Well, there is a difference between voluntary and involuntary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    26 million is nothing.
    I actually laughed out loud reading this. First, 26 million is not ‘nothing’, do you even know how many programs this 26 million funds throughout the world? Second, like I said, THIS IS ONLY ONE GROUP!
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    Learn to live with it because it's not going anywhere.
    I am sure glad you were not the leader of the civil rights movement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    But you're a libertarian, which, in fiscal terms, is even more ridiculous.
    Yup, it’s ridiculous to be an adult and in change of my own finances; let’s be children and let the government take care of us.

    I am moving on to fixing the problem now.
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  6. #56
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD
    So, what DO we do?
    Well, it’s going to take a lot of work and it will touch multiple items other than welfare.
    I’ll work on fixing the problem in my later posts.
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I will have to disagree. I will not support theft no matter if the theft is used for good. I will not support a program that is unfair and destructive to everyone.
    Theft is illegally acquiring someone else's property. Welfare is not theft anymore than taxation itself is, as both are legal. We can talk about the morality of taxation if you want, but calling it theft is disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Your original point is moot because I can easily use it to support my point.
    Your point was that welfare is destructive, yet you gloss over all the success stories of people who use welfare to improve their lives and arrive at personality stability; you also conveniently ignore the many, many people who fall back on welfare as a temporary measure due to life circumstances, but who get it off it later. Actually, of the people I personally know who went on welfare, it was for the latter reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I will not support a forced obligation, I mean, do I got to support the people living on my street likes children? No! I do not have to take the whole ‘kitten and kabootle’ and you should not either.
    I'm saying that you don't get to pick and choose where your tax money goes. Social programs create budgets for education, highways, the postal service, family services, etc. Those are all really useful and should not be tossed out. As for social entitlements, there is no way you can prove that it's all money wasted. I agree that there are abuses in the system, but c'mon.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I know you are from Canada, but America fought a war against this type of thing (taxes).
    Canada didn't have its current level of taxation until WWII, so don't preach to me about my own country. We got slammed with a greedy government just like you did, especially in central Canada.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Well, there is a difference between voluntary and involuntary.
    You're right, there is. Voluntary donations do not produce enough money to run the social programs in your nation, or mine. If we had to rely on people's good will alone, our streets would be crammed with shanty towns like you see in rural India. Speaking of which, government subsidies also support rural families who produce your food. Without government help food production would drop. It is just one example of how social programs are benefiting you... but all you can look at is, "it's my money and not yours." Greedy greedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I actually laughed out loud reading this. First, 26 million is not ‘nothing’, do you even know how many programs this 26 million funds throughout the world? Second, like I said, THIS IS ONLY ONE GROUP!
    Social programs require tens of billions of dollars annually. How many times can it be said? Charities are not enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I am sure glad you were not the leader of the civil rights movement.
    Cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    Yup, it’s ridiculous to be an adult and in change of my own finances; let’s be children and let the government take care of us.
    It's not about just you and never has been. This kind of selfish remark is why modern America cannot rely on charities to get by. I guarantee that half of the people who talk about voluntary donations would never donate their money in a voluntary system; and like I said, this is the consumer era where people spend, spend, spend. You are encouraged to throw away your current stuff and spend more money to acquire new stuff. It is a pack-rat philosophy spanning a couple of generations now. People are no longer charitable like they were before modern consumerism.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepnklown View Post
    I am moving on to fixing the problem now.
    Have fun with that.
    Last edited by Orion; 07-24-10 at 12:27 AM.

  8. #58
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Yup, it’s ridiculous to be an adult and in change of my own finances; let’s be children and let the government take care of us.
    Of course I support that adults should be capable of handling their affairs and properly supporting their children.

    So why can't they? Why don't these certain people feel that same way? Why don't they want to?

    We can't *make* them want to do it and care - (which is odd considering that their support comes from taxes which people don't *want* to pay but are *forced* to do - because money is tangible. . . people's interest's and desires aren't.)

    But we can help those who *do* want help with solid and adequate programs that will put them in the right direction.
    We can also further reward those who do more and more of their part - right now the system is set up in a way that discourages self-sufficiency.
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  9. #59
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion
    Have fun with that.
    I responded to your post, point by point then deleted it.
    I invite you to help in ideas to reform or gradually end welfare.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Is wellfare today un-American?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    But we can help those who *do* want help with solid and adequate programs that will put them in the right direction.
    We can also further reward those who do more and more of their part - right now the system is set up in a way that discourages self-sufficiency.
    Itís because gradually the state has created a society of dependants. I think we currently need major reform of the welfare system and then gradually end it but, I will type out more another time.
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