View Poll Results: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

Voters
38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Country/ plot of land should be given to those who claim their ancestors once lived there.

    0 0%
  • Money should be given to those who claim their ancestors were enslaved,killed, robbed and etc.

    0 0%
  • Apologies from the government IE the tax payers to the descendants whose ancestors were wronged.

    3 7.89%
  • Ancestral claims have no bearing on today.

    27 71.05%
  • other/I do not know

    10 26.32%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

  1. #21
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Entire countries aren't guilty of anything, individuals are.
    That's not entirely true. With regards to the Native Americans, the U.S. government has signed treaties with them, but have constantly reneged on those treaties. So while countries aren't guilty of anything, governments are.

  2. #22
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    I have a few different thoughts on this.

    In regards to giving land “back” or them having some kind of claim to demand citizenship or other such thing? No. There is almost no civilization on earth today that I can think of off the top of my head that exists as it does today or as it did in the past that did not engage in some kind of land battles of their own. Early Europe and the Middle East was a constant turmoil and flux of people settling, attacking or being attacked, new people taking over, more attacking and being attacked, and on and on. I may be wrong on this but its my understanding many of the native American tribes warred at times with each other as well. I believe these sort of things happened in Asia as well. This is simply how the world worked through the earlier days of man and while under the morals and scope of what we view as acceptable and moral today it may be deplorable that notion doesn’t magically change history and what was common practice at those times. It is extremely important for human’s as a species to learn from past mistakes, to attempt to improve on them, and to move forward. However it is not beneficial to spend all the time in the future trying to “fix” the past when doing such will truly “fix” nothing but simply present change for the sake of change where the status quo shifts, leaving no more or less in a better position, but adds a large amount of time in between of needless and likely difficult and damaging flux. Ultimately we must deal with what is the case of the now and present and find ways to move forward from there rather than attempting to rectify the past by completely up heaving the past.

    In regards to land already bestowed upon Native Americans, I have no issue with these lands and they should remain free unto themselves to govern as they like without the federal government infringing on it or further taking that land. This is an agreement entered into by our government and I believe it should be maintained and kept as the government should be true to its word (one of those “learning from mistakes” moments). That said I do not think additional land should be annexed to be given back to them per the statements above. I would be open to an idea I believe I saw at some point on the web suggesting taking a very, very large portion of land (I believe in the Dakotas) and giving it over to a unified Native American confederation in trade for their current reservations. Essentially trading the numerous smaller plots of land scattered throughout the U.S. for a far larger singular and continuous plot of land that could potential function as its own state (in the universal sense not the U.S. sense of the word). However my understanding that this is undesirable to many as it would cause them to relinquish land that’s is on or near ancestral land and relocate.

    In regards to payments made to the descendents of horrible events such as children of slaves, native Americans, Japanese/Italians/German, etc I’m rather iffy. I understand the issue with them being at a “disadvantage”. At the same time, I believe we’re at enough generations in between now that it becomes far more difficult to singularly point to slavery or the taking of lands as the solitary or even major reason why an individual is at the point in his life that he is. We have people that could be 4 or 5 generations removed, with splits off from their family tree that were potentially not just decently well off but potentially extremely successful, making it more and more difficult to legitimately point back to those things 200/300 years ago and say “oh, that’s why I’m where I am at in my life now”. So in general I am not in favor of cash payouts to such individuals. While I do not push for apologizes to be made or acknowledgement of wrong doing in our past in an official way I generally do not get upset about it when it’s for things decades and decades if not centuries into our past and able to be fully viewed through the scope of history. I do have an issue when it becomes a repetitive thing where each couple years it seems a new effort to “apologize” occurs.

    So I guess I’d be an Other/no barring, as the one thing I agree with isn’t actually because of ancestral claims but due to more modern agreements.

  3. #23
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    I say applogies should be given, more because they show intent by governments to uphold advances in human rights and an effort to not repeat wrongs of the past, more than anything.
    You do realize that elected officials are servants of the people and represent the people,so what ever they do they do in our name, more specifically the people their district represents name. So senator Douche-bag from Maine apologizing for slavery is not senator Douche-bag apologizing on his own behalf or that of the government. It is the residents of Maine in Senator Douche-bag's district that are apologizing for slavery when Senator Douche-bag is apologizing for slavery.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  4. #24
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    I think Native Americans should be allowed to run their reservations as sovereign territory (most local, state-wide, and national laws do not apply) and that Native Americans and their descendants should not have to pay any federal personal income tax.

    I'm only for reparations for Native Americans, as the American government has had a horrible history of making and breaking treaties with the Native Americans. While the current government hasn't done anything to the Native Americans, our government has, and has broken many treaties that Native American tribes have signed in good faith, which were broken by administrations so that European-Americans could benefit. This is wealth denied to those Native Americans families who could have invested that wealth and build it up over the generations. Thus why I feel they would be justified in getting reparations of some kind.

    I think having better sovereignty over their land and no need to pay federal personal income tax would be the best way to provide reparations to them. Thus, we don't need to give them any land nor any money, but rather just allow them to keep more of the wealth they earn and to treat their lands as more independent territory so they can live as they wish.
    The Indians broke many of those treaties as well. Try not to paint this a one-sided, because it isn't by a long shot.
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  5. #25
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    nothing, its just more entitlement crap. I know too many native american families that live off the government and do NOTHING because they just get their meager amount of govt. money and have no desire to better themselves.

  6. #26
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    That's not entirely true. With regards to the Native Americans, the U.S. government has signed treaties with them, but have constantly reneged on those treaties. So while countries aren't guilty of anything, governments are.
    Yea I understand that but what are we going to do, try to fix every broken promise from the past?
    The American Indians should get some more support but at the same time they are supposed to be a sovereign nation.

    I have a legitimate ancestral grievance of the government.

    My great grandfather lost $10k + 2 homes at the beginning of the Great Depression because of the Feds actions of contracting the money supply and not doing their duty as lender of last resort.

    What are my chances of making a claim on that money and getting it?
    None.

    It's time to move on folks, there is a whole world of opportunity out there.
    Crying about spilled milk isn't productive.
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  7. #27
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Indians broke many of those treaties as well. Try not to paint this a one-sided, because it isn't by a long shot.
    They are not, never were, "Indians".
    In truth, it was 90% one-sided.
    We came ,saw, conquered, the natives had no chance..
    We had the gall to call them "savages", we were the savages.
    But, that was then, this is now.
    No apologies.
    I generally agree with Samsmart.

  8. #28
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Absolutely, positively nothing. Just because your ancestors lived on a piece of land doesn't mean that land is yours. I can't go back to the places my ancestors have ever lived and demand that it's now my land, that's ridiculous. Besides, just because your people controlled it once doesn't mean they still have any control over it. They likely lost it fair and square, now go find your own land.
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  9. #29
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    We recent "immigrants" tried to make life easier for native Americans, but their culture doesn't seem to value education. I have worked with a few who are between a white man rock and a native american hard place. Their families don't understand them when they leave the reservation, go to college, and work the white man's jobs....
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  10. #30
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    The Indians broke many of those treaties as well. Try not to paint this a one-sided, because it isn't by a long shot.
    I understand that the Native Americans aren't totally innocent in the conflict they had with the U.S. government. However, most of the malice resides with the U.S. government. For one, the government, and especially the American people, did not differentiate very much between the different tribes. So if one tribe kept to a treaty, but another tribe broke it, the government would ry to punish both tribes. So with regards to that, the attempts of the U.S. government to deal with tribes individually could have been better and more nuanced.

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