View Poll Results: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

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38. You may not vote on this poll
  • Country/ plot of land should be given to those who claim their ancestors once lived there.

    0 0%
  • Money should be given to those who claim their ancestors were enslaved,killed, robbed and etc.

    0 0%
  • Apologies from the government IE the tax payers to the descendants whose ancestors were wronged.

    3 7.89%
  • Ancestral claims have no bearing on today.

    27 71.05%
  • other/I do not know

    10 26.32%
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Thread: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

  1. #11
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    If we are doing reparations for what currently dead people did to other currently dead people, then I'm going to give a piece of my mind to the Ethiopian government for having their people take my distant ancestor's cave.
    "Doubleplusungood"

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  2. #12
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    I had to vote "other" because it depends on how far back you go.

    The grandchildren of a Japanese person whose home was taken; there's a direct and traceable economic impact there. Had his grandparents not had to start all over again upon internment, his parents, and thus himself all would have had more of a head start. That head start was stolen.

    Same with those who can directly trace their heritage to Holocaust victims.

    Beyond two generations, though, you're getting really vague on traceability - but, more importantly, the impact is less direct with each generation. That's why I would go no further back than grandparents.

  3. #13
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    They should not be acknowledged etc. What the government or people did 100 or more years ago has no bearing at all on today.
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  4. #14
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Ancestral claims are a good reason for the descendants of people who have lost land or goods to try to take them back. They're no reason for the descendants of the people who took them to return them, because they have just as legitimate ancestral claims to what was taken-- was it not handed down to them from their grandfathers?

  5. #15
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Liable to who? There is no one alive who was a slave in the US. There is no American Indian alive whose land we took. I could maybe see in the case of those interred during WW@, but no one is around to claim any reparations.
    If there is no person, that is alive, to apologize to; why do it?
    Who are you satisfying?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  6. #16
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Not really, the gov can issue an official apology without having to give any kind of land. Because the country can't deny that we are guilty of these things, but an apology would be acknowledging the mistake and moving past it. Though I wouldn't push for an apology, I wouldn't be upset about it.
    Entire countries aren't guilty of anything, individuals are.
    More to the point, dead individuals.

    Making an apology implies that you are the guilty party and the there is someone existing that has suffered from your actions.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  7. #17
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    If there is no person, that is alive, to apologize to; why do it?
    Who are you satisfying?
    I did not say I thought it was a good idea.
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  8. #18
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    What's important is the influence of past actions on current affairs, and from a libertarian view, the influence of past instances of aggression on current negative effects in the livelihoods of people, when the consequences of that aggression are perpetuated by lack of reparations. That's why DrunkenAsparagus's comment about the Ethiopian cave isn't convincing, as I've mentioned to him before. It's not a complicated principle: Smith steals valuable possessions from Jones, leaving his own grandson wealthy without personal effort and Jones's grandson poor without personal failure. Smith's grandson is not personally complicit in the theft, but he is in possession of stolen property, stolen property that should rightfully be returned to Jones's grandson if they are to both have opportunity to succeed based on their abilities and willingness to work hard, instead of predetermined conditions.

    There should not be apologies, because that is an admission of personal liability, when it's been mentioned that no one alive today is responsible for initiation of the worst offenses against historically disenfranchised populations. There should be condemnations of the people responsible, but no one alive today should be made to feel personally guilty for the actions of their long-dead ancestors that they have no control over. That I believe this is why I laugh at texmaster and MrVicchio's rants about me "hating whitey" (even though I am part white myself, since I have European admixture; I have family members with green and blue eyes).

    I think social conservatives have an idea that "reparations" to minority populations are subsidies of laziness and apathy, instead of encouragements of those peoples to climb back on their feet and pull themselves up by their bootstraps, instead of lying around feeling sorry for themselves and waiting for handouts. I agree with the underlying sentiment that those who should be helped are those who help themselves, but I've met many, many people who work extremely hard and get nowhere, and others who do nothing but inherit from their ancestors. To me, this is caused by the statist corporatism that our economy is, which is why I get upset when people try and defend it with free market rhetoric. It has nothing to do with free market capitalism; free market capitalism allows people to rise and fall on their own merits.

  9. #19
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I did not say I thought it was a good idea.
    My bad, I didn't read your whole comment.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  10. #20
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    Re: What should be given because of ancestral claims?

    I say applogies should be given, more because they show intent by governments to uphold advances in human rights and an effort to not repeat wrongs of the past, more than anything.

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