View Poll Results: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

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  • Yes, they should be allowed to demand a traditional Christian moral code from all teachers

    40 41.24%
  • They should be allowed if they prove they apply the same standards to all teachers

    4 4.12%
  • They should be allowed, but that doesn't make it right

    22 22.68%
  • They are discriminating against women, since fornication is more obvious with them

    3 3.09%
  • If the school board members can prove they never fornicated, then they stand on solid ground

    3 3.09%
  • Christian schools should not be allowed to discriminate on moral grounds

    11 11.34%
  • Christians are the biggest bunch of hypocrites on the face of the Earth!

    8 8.25%
  • Other response

    6 6.19%
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Thread: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

  1. #321
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It's dishonest to assert this as fact, as that's exactly what the court case is meant to address.

    It's also unclear whether or not this was actually in the contract, as the plaintiff has stated she never made such a committment to the school.
    Did the contract entitle her to a certain length of employment?

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    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    First of all the "pursuit of happiness" is in the declaration of independence which does not have the force of law
    You're mincing words.

    The point is that it's an inherent belief of our nation and one that is laid out in clear and elaborate language in a great many laws in our country.


    and second of all even if it did just like the Constitution it's a piece of paper written by dead men.
    Kind of like the Bible?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Also, that's sort of like saying "The Titanic is just a ferry."

    No, it's a little bit more than just a piece of paper written by dead men. It's interesting insight into where you're coming from on the matter, however.

    Each individual is entitled to self ownership and thus has exclusive rights to use and control over their own body and all property created by that body and does not owe any good or service to anyone which they do not voluntarily offer to give.
    True. Part of that freedom is right of employment. The employer is also entitled to freedom to hire - within reason. An uneducated high school student can't apply to be the head of NASA and expect to get the job for example. The employer is not obligated to hire someone they don't want to if the reasons for not wanting to hire them are fair and do not violate anyone else's rights.

    What we actually have, is a competition between two freedoms. One belonging to the employer, and one belonging to the employee. The fact of the matter is that they hired her in the first place, so she's obviously capable of performing the duty. They fired her for something unrelated to job performance however, something that is inherently a protected right of each citizen.

  3. #323
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Did the contract entitle her to a certain length of employment?
    I have no idea. They didn't let her contract expire however. They fired her.

  4. #324
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You're mincing words.

    The point is that it's an inherent belief of our nation and one that is laid out in clear and elaborate language in a great many laws in our country.
    BFD. Happiness is not a right. She can pursue her happiness at another job.

    Kind of like the Bible?
    No the bible is a lot more ****ing stupid.

    Sorry, couldn't resist.
    I'm a ****ing anti-theist.

    Also, that's sort of like saying "The Titanic is just a ferry."

    No, it's a little bit more than just a piece of paper written by dead men. It's interesting insight into where you're coming from on the matter, however.
    Yes it is a little more than just a piece of paper, it is a tyrannical piece of paper which forces the individual into the bonds of indentured servitude to the state since birth.

    True. Part of that freedom is right of employment.
    No it's not. You are not entitled to any good or service. You are not entitled to anything except the right of self ownership.

    The employer is also entitled to freedom to hire - within reason. An uneducated high school student can't apply to be the head of NASA and expect to get the job for example. The employer is not obligated to hire someone they don't want to if the reasons for not wanting to hire them are fair and do not violate anyone else's rights.
    The employer is not obligated to hire anyone, the reason doesn't matter.

    What we actually have, is a competition between two freedoms.
    No what we have here is the right of self ownership and a made up right which infringes upon the right of self ownership.

    One belonging to the employer, and one belonging to the employee. The fact of the matter is that they hired her in the first place, so she's obviously capable of performing the duty. They fired her for something unrelated to job performance however, something that is inherently a protected right of each citizen.
    A) If it was in her contract that she would abstain from sex then she violated the contractual agreement, B) unless the contract entitled her to a certain length of employment they could have fired her because it's a tuesday and not been in violation of the contractual agreement.

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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I have no idea. They didn't let her contract expire however. They fired her.
    Well if the contract had an expiration date then she was guaranteed a certain length of employment and would be entitled to compensation for the salary guaranteed to her, that is of course unless the contract stipulated that she would abstain from sex or even something more vague like adhering to a Christian ethos.

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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    BFD. Happiness is not a right. She can pursue her happiness at another job.

    No the bible is a lot more ****ing stupid.

    I'm a ****ing anti-theist.

    Yes it is a little more than just a piece of paper, it is a tyrannical piece of paper which forces the individual into the bonds of indentured servitude to the state since birth.

    No it's not. You are not entitled to any good or service. You are not entitled to anything except the right of self ownership.

    The employer is not obligated to hire anyone, the reason doesn't matter.

    No what we have here is the right of self ownership and a made up right which infringes upon the right of self ownership.

    A) If it was in her contract that she would abstain from sex then she violated the contractual agreement, B) unless the contract entitled her to a certain length of employment they could have fired her because it's a tuesday and not been in violation of the contractual agreement.
    Wow. That's pretty interesting. You're pretty interesting. Nice to meet you. I hope we get to talk again soon.



    Does anyone who resides within the realm of reason and who is not pissed off beyond the limits of sanity want to have a conversation about this?

  7. #327
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    No one has the right to employment, the employer owes no good or service to anyone if she violated the voluntary contractual agreement which she entered into with the owner of the business whether she showed up five minutes late when it states clearly in her contract that she must show up on time or if she had sex if it said that she would not, then she violated the contract, it doesn't matter if it is being used as a pretext to deny maternity leave or not, she violated the contract and can be fired.
    That's just factually incorrect. Nearly everyone has violated their employment contract (if they have one) at some point during their careers. If the employer ignored it for a long period of time, they can't just suddenly fire you for it when it's inconvenient for them to pay maternity leave. That's a violation of the contract, which almost certainly specifies maternity leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    In fact if offering maternity leave was mandated by the state then that in itself is a violation of his rights to begin with.
    Whether or not you agree with the state's mandate is irrelevant. The employee had a contract specifying she was entitled to maternity leave, which she was denied. That's a breach of contract.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris
    Now if on the other hand she was under no contractual agreement to abstain from sex and was offered maternity leave in the contract then the employer is in violation of the contractual agreement so long as the contract entitled her to a certain length of employment.
    I highly doubt that her contract specifically mentioned premarital sex, but even if it did, it doesn't change the fact that the employer never had a problem with it until she requested maternity leave.
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  8. #328
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's just factually incorrect. Nearly everyone has violated their employment contract (if they have one) at some point during their careers. If the employer ignored it for a long period of time, they can't just suddenly fire you for it when it's inconvenient for them to pay maternity leave. That's a violation of the contract, which almost certainly specifies maternity leave.
    That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, she violated her contract not the company, maybe the reason why that stipulation was in the contract to begin with is because they didn't want to pay maternity leave. If she violated the contract they can fire her end of story.

    Whether or not you agree with the state's mandate is irrelevant. The employee had a contract specifying she was entitled to maternity leave, which she was denied. That's a breach of contract.
    No that's not a breach of contract because she violated the contractual agreement first, you can't very well obtain maternity leave if you don't have sex now can you?

    I highly doubt that her contract specifically mentioned premarital sex, but even if it did, it doesn't change the fact that the employer never had a problem with it until she requested maternity leave.
    Maybe that's why the stipulation was in the contract to begin with. Regardless if she agreed to abide by a Christian ethos while under their employ and became pregnant out of wedlock during that time it is she who violated the contract.

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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard, she violated her contract not the company, maybe the reason why that stipulation was in the contract to begin with is because they didn't want to pay maternity leave. If she violated the contract they can fire her end of story.



    No that's not a breach of contract because she violated the contractual agreement first, you can't very well obtain maternity leave if you don't have sex now can you?



    Maybe that's why the stipulation was in the contract to begin with. Regardless if she agreed to abide by a Christian ethos while under their employ and became pregnant out of wedlock during that time it is she who violated the contract.
    It's irrelevant. This doesn't fly for the same reason that you can't say "We're sorry Mrs. Smith, we understand you filed for maternity leave...but we also have ignored it in the past when you showed up for work five minutes late. Sorry, you're fired." That is nothing more than an EXCUSE to not have to pay maternity leave since the employer never raised the issue before, and any court in America would feel the same way.

    And you are simply factually incorrect that the text of the contract is the only thing that should matter. Anyone who has ever worked in a large organization knows that the rules on paper can be dramatically different from the rules in practice. If an employer allows violations of the written rules to occur, then the courts will NOT view the written policy as the employer's actual policy. This is widely established law.
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  10. #330
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    Re: Should a Christian school be allowed to fire a teacher for fornication?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    She was not doing anything illegal nor trying intentionally to harm the school. She should sue them.
    Christian schools exist to educate childern in a Christian environment. I am sorry, but pre-martial sex is not a Chirstian value. To allow this would dilute the very essence of Christian education, which is exactly what the parents are expecting of the school. To not fire her would be hypocrisy. That said, I am certain many to most Christian schools are guilty of double standard or uneven application of Christian standards, that is not an argument against her firing.

    I would advise against her filing a lawsuit that will not go in her favor but instead cost her a lot of money.

    To argue to your direct point: intentional or not, she did do something to harm the school.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 06-17-10 at 12:48 AM.

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