View Poll Results: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

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Thread: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

  1. #71
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Please don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. A friend of mine, Amy, who worked for SLCPD, was involved in a lethal use of force with a mentally ill guy. The subject was well over six feet, 250 pounds, and whackadoo out of his mind on drugs. It was pitch black, pouring rain, and the guy was menacing Amy and her partner with a larger club made from a tree branch. Her partner slipped in the mud and went down, and the guy charged Amy. She shot him in the head (as she was trained to do). The family of the subject claimed that he was really non-violent and they should have been able to subdue the guy without lethal force.That's a pretty easy claim to make when you're armchair quarterbacking and in no risk of harm (not to mention suing the department for illegal use of force in hopes of a big cash payoff). But when you're actually THERE, faced with using force, it happens so fast that training kicks in and the officers involved do the best they can, given the circumstances.
    Seems that there are a lot of gang banging wannabe dope peddlers in the Phoenix area who, according to their mothers, are good boys who go to church every Sunday, and were just at the wrong place at the wrong time, and got shot by police who then planted drugs on them. Never mind that the perps are usually on surveillence videos long before the confrontation. Good stuff, that video, sometimes it catches cops going overboard, but most times it proves to the family that their innocent child really wasn't....innocent....
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    What people don't seem to realize is that the police officers don't want to get hurt either. This is about their safety as well as that of the suspect.
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    I will add this to it....if I showed a photo of the entire police force for that community, almost anybody would be able to pick out the lone asswipe in the group....
    We moved soon after the event with my FIL, so I never heard more about him. Hopefully he found work more suitable to his temperament....
    Concerning the death, yes, family members reported their side of the story, which matched the cops story. He had no way of knowing the man would die, it was a freakish situation. THAT cop wasn't an asswipe, but he surely could have handled THAT situation better.
    But the fact remains, the man had no weapon in his hands, and was not attacking anyone.
    And you are not expected to comment, especially since you seem to be a bit biased here. Like I said, no profession is immune....
    I am old enough to have personal knowledge or experience of a lawyer ripping off his own mother's assets, a dentist molesting female clients, another professional using his private plane to run drugs, and more... All supposedlly good people demonstrating bad judgement.
    A weapon is not a pre-requisite for use of a tazer.
    This is the 2nd time Ive had to mention this to you.
    One also does not have to be in the process of beating another person down before the tazer can be used. I don't have enough detail to comment on the rest of the story. But I can only assume there is alot more to the story than you would let on if the tazer was used.
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    What people don't seem to realize is that the police officers don't want to get hurt either. This is about their safety as well as that of the suspect.
    See that is the problem.

    Far too often idiot citizens believe its the job of the police to risk greater harm to themselves and risk even death to themselves to ensure that they don't accidentally hurt a suspect more than their preconcieved idea of what is 'reasonable'.

    Tazer deaths when a violent high on cocaine freak is running around attacking officers are eaten up by the media and turned into public outcry from liberals who would rather see a few more officers get their ass beat and sent to the hospital instead of use a tazer.

    Officer involved shootings where a suspect is killed after pointing a weapon at the public and at officers in a menacing way create huge public outcry when it is later learned that the weapon was not loaded, or way a very realistic looking replica of a weapon.

    Officer involved shootings where Officers respond to a call about an armned man, and when the officers confront the man who meets the description, he refuses to put his hands up in plain view and then moves his hands quickly to his waist trying to retrive an item and gets shot. People freak about that when it is later found the individual was NOT armed. As if police are required to get shot in the face before they can defend themselves against an imminent or what is reported to be an imminent threat.

    I think the public needs to understand the business of policing before they open their mouths on issues they don't know anything about personally.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    It occurs to me that there might be some misunderstanding about what a Tazer is.

    A Tazer is not a self-defense weapon.

    A Tazer is a subject restraint device. That is what it is used for. It is used restrain an uncooperative/resistive/combative subject, so that they can be detained and placed in physical restraints (ie cuffs) without the risks entailed in physical fight.

    It is not a "weapon", it is not intended for use against a subject that is capable of inflicting deadly harm. Tazers are too limited to be used regularly in that role. Their range is limited, if you don't get both probes stuck in tight with a reasonable distance between them it may not disable the subject, and you only get two shots.

    Restrain uncooperative subject: Tazer.

    Deal with subject who is an armed threat: Sidearm.

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  6. #76
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gina View Post
    if they feel the need to pull their weapon, then they feel they are in mortal danger and should shoot to kill.
    That's not necessarily true. If they feel the need to shoot their weapon, then they should shoot to kill.

    I've had a cop who felt the need to pull his weapon on me when I wasn't even commiting a crime. I was paining a friend's condo and his dumbass neighbor saw me smoking outside when I was taking a break and called the police.

    The cop came to the patio door which was open for ventilation purposes and opened it. I asked if there was a problem and he said "Do you live here?"

    I said "No" and before I could finish saying "I'm painting the place" I had a gun in my face and I was being told to get on the ground.

    Well, things got cleared up fairly quickly once I got the chance to explain. The cop even appologized to me for pulling hs gun, and I told him "No problem. I'd have doen the same thing if I was you. I'm just happy that I'm wearing overalls. I can just throw them away instead of having to clean the **** out of them".

    Anyway, the point is that he wasn't in any danger but he was justified in pulling his weapon.

    Apparently the dumbass neighbor said I was an asian guy. How the **** she came to that conclusion nobody will ever know. Basically, he needed to neutralize any possible threat form me while his partner looked around for this mythical asian guy.

    In the end, the whole situation was pretty funny. If he had decided that he was in mortal danger and shot to kill, though, nobody would have been laughing.


    Edited to add: On the tazer issue, if he had had a tazer instead of a gun and had actually shot me with it, it would have been ****ing hilarious. Painful, but hilarious.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 06-04-10 at 10:48 AM.
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  7. #77
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    A weapon is not a pre-requisite for use of a tazer.
    This is the 2nd time Ive had to mention this to you.
    One also does not have to be in the process of beating another person down before the tazer can be used. I don't have enough detail to comment on the rest of the story. But I can only assume there is alot more to the story than you would let on if the tazer was used.
    Wow, second time. Will a third time get me tazed? You seem to have an attitude problem, certainly a bias. If you are saying that cops are never wrong, then you are wrong. I have seen videos of cops using tear gas directly into the eyes of protestors, not violent criminals, but protestors. That action indicates an asswipe is in charge of the cops at that scene, that being whoever ordered it done. I have seen videos of cops pulling other cops off a perp, a handcuffed, on the ground perp, one that just wrecked his car after leading the cops on a chase. Yes, he endangered others, but the danger is over, the perp is on the ground, restrained, and the cop starts kicking him.
    Cops who can't control their anger should find another line of work.
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Concerning the death, yes, family members reported their side of the story, which matched the cops story. He had no way of knowing the man would die, it was a freakish situation. THAT cop wasn't an asswipe, but he surely could have handled THAT situation better.
    Tell me. How would you have handled subduing a naked man who isn't responsive to requests to surrender himself ot officers? What do you think the officers SHOULD have done? A tazer is generally a safe, non-permanent method of obtaining compliance that beats the hell out of using a baton to subdue a resistant suspect.

    Do I have bias? I'm not a cop. I've just watched them do their jobs, and I've seen how fast these scenarios spin out of control. A guy who is having a psychotic episode may not be susceptible to pain, use of pressure points, and can even be freakishly strong. You're commenting about this because you have an axe to grind against particular cops, and because you've become convinced that a lot of cops are badge-heavy thugs.

    Are there bad cops? Sure. But there are a lot less of them than most people believe, and their jobs are a lot harder than you seem to think they are. There are only so many ways to subdue a person who doesn't want to be arrested, Bill. Getting into a wrestling match is likely to cause the officer serious harm, not to mention the suspect.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 06-04-10 at 11:17 AM.

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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Tucker, you MUST have had a weapon on you, what was it, roller or brush?

    Again in southern Utah, middle of nowhere, I stopped a few years back to warn an officer about a dangerous situation about a mile back, a stalled car left ON THE ROAD. He was in his car writing a ticket for a speeder, and when he saw me approaching on foot he got very beligerent and ordered me to stand back until he was done with the speeder. That was before I even started talking. I tried to say something, but all he could do was yell at me, he was in no mood for listening. He was clearly already agitated so I said forget it and started walking back to my car. He then reconsidered and asked if I had an emergency to report. Well duh.....
    I told him about the stalled car left on the road and a lady walking back to town. It would be a long walk for her. I was just at the point of turning around when I saw the cop car so I figured he would want to know.

    I suppose if I had continued approaching him, I would have met Mr. Tazer. Give a guy a toy and he WILL play with it. And give SOME guys a bit of authority and it will go to his head. Again, SOME cops should find other ways to make a living.
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    Re: Should police be required to shoot to wound suspects who threatening their lives?

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    Again in southern Utah, middle of nowhere, I stopped a few years back to warn an officer about a dangerous situation about a mile back, a stalled car left ON THE ROAD. He was in his car writing a ticket for a speeder, and when he saw me approaching on foot he got very beligerent and ordered me to stand back until he was done with the speeder. That was before I even started talking. I tried to say something, but all he could do was yell at me, he was in no mood for listening. He was clearly already agitated so I said forget it and started walking back to my car. He then reconsidered and asked if I had an emergency to report. Well duh.....
    I think I understand now. Cops who work in S. Utah work large patrol beats ALONE. They stop cars frequently that are trafficking drugs between Arizona and/or Southern California up to Utah or farther north up I-15. They deal with a high percentage of people in those cars who are armed because there are more guns than people in the state of Utah.

    That officer is trained to focus his/her attention on the car that he/she has stopped for safety reasons. I've seen cops shot and killed or severely wounded during traffic stops like the one you described. A friend of mine was involved in a traffic stop of an 18th street gang member who ended up shooting him 11 times with an AK-47. He was permanently disabled, but amazingly, survived.

    If an officer tells you not to approach his/her car until he/she has finished dealing with the business they are engaged in, FOLLOW THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. There is a good reason for them. That officer is trained to control the scene of a traffic stop (or any other scene), and that includes not allowing distractions during the process. Not only does the officer have to worry about safety risks from the car that he's stopped, but several officers in Utah have also been killed because idiots on I-15 HIT THEIR STOPPED VEHICLES ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, including a guy I worked with for several years.

    That's a lot to pay attention to without you blundering into the middle of it like some happy-go-lucky well-intentioned idiot.

    I would recommend watching this video before you get behind the wheel again.
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 06-04-10 at 11:37 AM.

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