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  • Yes, this os unfair to white students

    38 79.17%
  • No, this is fair to whites since it is additional enrollment

    5 10.42%
  • Maybe. I can see the arguments for both sides, it's not clear cut

    3 6.25%
  • Other

    2 4.17%
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Thread: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

  1. #51
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
    Now we're getting into what the disparity in education is really all about. If you were going to open the 100 enrollments to students who fell under the title of "disadvantaged" on class/income lines alone, then I think you could get away with it. Even still, you would have to justify these enrollments being restricted along financial lines by tying them to some kind of scholarship or grant where a maximum income would be a mandatory qualifier. I could see the benefit in this much more than I can see the benefit in reinforcing the idea that minorities need a boost that whites don't.

    I now invite hazlnut to call me racist or whatever nonsense he was spewing earlier.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    In my mind, the only way to truly reduce disparity of opportunity is to improve the K-12 education system, not accept lower-quality students because they had less opportunity.

    And the key to that is not more money, it's better methods.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    In my mind, the only way to truly reduce disparity of opportunity is to improve the K-12 education system, not accept lower-quality students because they had less opportunity.

    And the key to that is not more money, it's better methods.
    I agree...exceptional students make opportunity where there previously was none. However, I would hate to see a brilliant mind wasted for want of funds to pay tuition...

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I agree...exceptional students make opportunity where there previously was none. However, I would hate to see a brilliant mind wasted for want of funds to pay tuition...
    Two reasons that happens, IMO - Tuition prices are to high, and not enough government grants/loans.

    A lesser reason is directly tied to poor quality k-12 education - entering college students have to learn things that they should have learned in their k-12 education.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    I dont think anyone would presume that. But, wealth does not eliminate prejudice against one because of ones skin colour or gender. It does provide more opportunites and a safety net to help overcome difficulties, but it does not prevent race or gender prejudice.
    Apparently neither does being white.

    Rich Wealthy black family sends thier child off to college. He is a bit of a problem child and hasn't performed well in grades. He gets in college because he is black.

    Lower-Middle income white family sends their child off to college. He has worked hard and obtained educational scholarships as well as student loans. His grades aren't THE BEST EVER, but his grades are higher than the average accepted into the college. He is denied because the school needed more "minorities".

    How exactly is THIS scenario fair at all?
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    I think it depends upon whether there is some sort of discrimination within the community, or the results of past discrimination that is preventing minorities from being enrolled in universities. In this case I think there is a legitimate case for affirmative action. If both types of discrimination are virtually non-existant I don't think there is a need for it.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    I think it depends upon whether there is some sort of discrimination within the community, or the results of past discrimination that is preventing minorities from being enrolled in universities. In this case I think there is a legitimate case for affirmative action. If both types of discrimination are virtually non-existant I don't think there is a need for it.
    Past discrimination is never a justification for current discrimination.

    Two wrongs don't make a right.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Of course its discrimination. It is favoring one group over the other. It is just as bad as saying that we will reserve 100 new student seats ONLY for whites.

    Oh, and just food for thought: 48% of Americans living in poverty are white.

    Another thing: Asian families make more money on average than white families. Yet, as minorities, they would have preference under both this scenario and affirmative action. How is THAT fair?
    Last edited by Lakryte; 06-04-10 at 04:53 AM.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Bottom line folks: The philosophy of many Universities is that diversity benefits the entire student body as a mix of people from different cultural backgrounds and ethnicities enhances the learning environment.

    Bigots and xenophobes will disagree.

    Bottom line #2 folks: Upper white middle class kids have an advantage over urban kids when it come to gpa and SAT. Universities can certainly take into consideration that a certain student didn't have access to SAT prep classes or may have had to work a part-time job. GPA and Test scores set a baseline for acceptance. The University certainly has a right to decide what mix will lift the cultural/emotional intelligence of the entire class.

    My theory on SAT Prep classes is that they are counter-productive. They teach people of average natural intelligence how to become better test takers. They teach kids test tricks and memorization -- not creative thinking or in-depth problem solving. The day will come when college admissions will be partially based on DNA -- your actual potential to learn and contribute -- not a subjective test score.
    For now, I'll ignore you're attempt to slander anyone who disagrees with you as a bigot or xenophobe and try to have a civilized, intelligent discussion. I'm hoping you won't make me regret that decision.

    Upper middle class minorities don't have the same advantages? And poor whites don't have disadvantages of their own? If the issue you're attempting to address is the affect poverty has on education, why not make these preferences, or quotas, or whatever systems based on income and not race/ethnicity?

    The idea of setting any number of slots, however small or insignificant, runs counter to the notion of everyone should have an equal opportunity to succeed based on their ability. Race, sex, ethnicity, sexuality ... these things have nothing to do with ability and should be not be factors in picking the best candidates.

    The argument that current level of white enrollment won't be affected because its an expansion, doesn't matter. According to that logic, the school could double its enrollment numbers and set aside half the spots for preferred groups. It too wouldn't affect current levels of enrollment.

    As to the question of changing the issue to setting aside slots for underpriveldged students. I have no problem give scholarships to qualified students who could not otherwise afford a college education. I don't think its a good policy to let in underqualified students simply on the basis of their income. I believe there are many studies that show students who get in solely because of quotas, preference programs, ect. flunk out at a much higher rate because they are not equipped to handle the word load in a college. And no amount of guaranteed slots will fix that problem.

    We need to fix our eduaction system K - 12 to address that issue.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    We need to fix our eduaction system K - 12 to address that issue.
    And something need to figure out how to do in order to help this is start holding parents accountable. Obviously we can't do this criminally or even fine them, but there has to be SOME WAY that we can get parents to be more like parents rather than just "providers". Far too often children fail to suceed in school because they lack the motivation needed at home to be sucessful. Teachers can only do so much, while in the classroom, and cannot be expected to raise all of these children during this limited time frame. Children have to be encouraged to have a desire to learn, and it needs to come from somewhere other than the classroom if it is to be sucessful.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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