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  • Yes, this os unfair to white students

    38 79.17%
  • No, this is fair to whites since it is additional enrollment

    5 10.42%
  • Maybe. I can see the arguments for both sides, it's not clear cut

    3 6.25%
  • Other

    2 4.17%
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Thread: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post

    But the main issue I have with discriminating for minorities (which is the true meaning of the so-called “positive discrimination) is that it implies they can’t make it on their own.
    Well, having experienced discrimination against myself because of my gender in the workplace, I do think the protection of things such as positive discrimination is needed. It is often the case that it matters more which gender you are, or which race you are, then what your abilities and qualifications are, in a workplace. And, taking any kind of action including reporting incidents takes more courage than those who have experienced repeated gender and race unfairness have left. We need something more than us as individuals, to stand up for us, to prevent things such as feelings of defeat and burn out.

    Also, minorities need something to put them into certain positions, in order for their presence in these positions to ever become mainstream. I still remember the 80s, when females students were mocked by male students to harassment levels, because of how they looked in the protective clothing they needed to perform science experiments for example. This harassment in schools no longer happens, because it has become normal for male students to share a class with female student. This did not happen, without the relentless and dedicated work of womens rights groups.
    Last edited by Mell; 06-02-10 at 06:38 PM.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    I understand this. But I don't believe it is as important as providing education to those who have proven themselves to have a higher chance of sucess. That is, if you are a college that is selective based upon Merit.
    SAT does not prove this. Merit is relative.


    Ahh the mantra of the race baiter.
    Just sayin' biggots and xenophobes won't be comfortable in a racially/cultural mixed environment. Do you disagree?

    Upper black/hispanic middle class kids have an advantage over urban kids when it comes to gpa and SAT.
    Sure. And they have an advantage over rural whites. Good colleges take that into consideration when they review transcripts and grades. Coming from an upper class school district can be a handicap unless you're at the top of the class.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Well, having experienced discrimination against myself because of my gender in the workplace, I do think the protection of things such as positive discrimination is needed. It is often the case that it matters more which gender you are, or which race you are, then what your abilities and qualifications are, in a workplace. And, taking any kind of action including reporting incidents takes more courage than those who have experienced repeated gender and race unfairness have left. We need something more than us as individuals, to stand up for us, to prevent things such as feelings of defeat and burn out.
    So called “positive discrimination” is not the correct way to solve the issues you mention, IMO.

    Harsh punishment for violation of anti-discrimination policies and strict guidelines for what can be used as determining factors when choosing people for a job, raises, and promotion is a better method, IMO.

    “Positive discrimination” is negative discrimination from someone’s point of view. Which is why I think the phrase is stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Also, minorities need something to put them into certain positions, in order for their presence in these positions to ever become mainstream.
    I completely disagree.
    I personally think rules and regulations designed to eliminate discrimination are a far better option than more discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    I still remember the 80s, when female students were mocked by male students to harassment levels because of how they looked in the protective clothing they needed to perform science experiments, for example. This harassment in schools no longer happens, because it has become normal for male students to share a class with female student. This did not happen, without the relentless and dedicated work of women’s rights groups.
    I think it likely that rules and regulations preventing harassment had something to do with it.
    Education.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Again?!

    When did they ever get the opportunity to compete in an even playing field, in the first place? Positive discrimination has to force an even playing field, or else one wont happen.
    Translation: Aww da poor poor minorities need our pity and sympathy so we can artificially prop them up.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is a hypothetical, though it may very well be something some schools do. Please read the situation and respond accordingly.

    A college decides to increase it's overall enrollment by 100 students, but those 100 students would be selected only from minorities. All other enrollment would be decided based on the same process as in the past, with the 100 students being the best of the minority students who would not normally get accepted at the school due to grades or test scores or whatever.

    Would white students and potential white students have a legitimate grievance that this is unfair to them?
    This would be totally fine...especially if your goal was to embarass and minimize the accomplishments of the minority students that busted their ass and qualified under legitimate circumstances. That way they could ALL be judged and seen as chronic underachievers, incapable of success without lowering standards.

    And hey...maybe we could do the same thing at med schools. Mind you...in order to not let them fail you would have to socially promote them regardless of their qualifications. And dont worry about whether or not the students walked around knowing they were inferior...maybe they could have special buses for them....and special classes...

    And hopefully...you would get one of those as your doctor...

    Oh...wait...this is just about whether or not the white students would have a legit beef...not if it is a bad idea...

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
    The role that finances play in getting a decent education is in favor of those who can afford to pay their way in.
    Money, also, is not something you're born with as a permanent part of you - unlike gender and race.
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Also, minorities need something to put them into certain positions, in order for their presence in these positions to ever become mainstream. I still remember the 80s, when females students were mocked by male students to harassment levels, because of how they looked in the protective clothing they needed to perform science experiments for example. This harassment in schools no longer happens, because it has become normal for male students to share a class with female student. This did not happen, without the relentless and dedicated work of womens rights groups.
    I respectfully disagree. The idea that minorities need some arbitrary advantage in addition to merit to achieve success is racist in of itself. That statement implies that by default many minorities are unable to compete solely based on merit. Using your example, one could argue that this legislation artificially increased in the percentage of women in a status quo male culture. By admitting students who fall short on merit but gain admission because of a civil rights law only serves to validate resentment when men see women who possess inferior educational qualifications. In addition, the implication that minorities need an extra bump reduces the legitimacy of individuals who would have achieved admission without a given civil rights law. If we want to see genuine respect for minorities, society must first recognize the honest merit of minority students.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
    Yes, it would be unfair to middle and upper class students. Although less politically loaded, income does not generate merit. Sure, low income students might have to work harder than middle/high income students because they cant afford professional private tutors (as one example). Overcoming economic adversity generates valuable work ethic skills, but a low income status itself does not generate merit by default. By avoiding an system of entitlement for low income candidates we predicate success on individual characteristics, not economic situation. The fact that America provides for a child education for primary and secondary school, for 12 years, is sufficient time to demonstrate the student's worthiness of a university level education, regardless of economic factors. In addition, the upper class already contributes significantly more revenue to public education than low income families because taxes (such as federal income tax) are generally progressive.

    While the results of affirmative minority rights might create a superficial sense of social or economic diversity, the societal harm created by implying inadequacy is far more detrimental to the desired result.
    Respectfully, HTTP
    Last edited by HeresToThePoint; 06-03-10 at 12:37 AM.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    HTTP(Heh, just got the initials, if that was your intention), the idea is that, right now, minority students largely do not have the same opportunities prior to college. They tend to be poor, and live in poor areas, with lower quality schools, less attentive parents, a more disruptive environment. This is not insulting, it is simple fact. So the idea behind the 100 students from minorities would be to help those who started at a real disadvantage. Part of the intent of the question is whether helping those with a disadvantage is unfair to those without it.

    Thank you all for the replies so far. I was worried that this thread would go bad, as so many that touch on race issues do, but you all have been very reasonable and measured in your responses.
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    The one issue I ran into while attending a community college in which ACT or SAT scores weren't equated when accepting students is that when you permit lesser-educated students into college level course it puts them in more of a disadvantage.

    The instructor cannot tutor.
    All entry level college students should have a grasp of grammar, spelling and other basic components of math and so on.
    One should, also, know how to type . . . and so on.
    These things should at least be brought up to level with the average entry-level student because when they're not it throws the entire balance of a class off.

    I became a teacher's aid for a while and helped check countless essays - spelling and grammar were far more horrid than I thought possible, yet these students were in college level classes.
    Essay after essay - small measures of improvement from the beginning to end of the semester but no one who was disadvantaged actually learned anything that would benefit them to advance to the next class - most had to repeat that same course.

    If people were truly concerned with helping those who are predisposed to lesser-quality education then they should focus wholeheartedly on improving all other factors, first, in an effort to bump those students up to a college-entry level when they do enter college. You can't just toss them into the fray and hope they survive because they won't. It's quite cruel, honestly.
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    The one issue I ran into while attending a community college in which ACT or SAT scores weren't equated when accepting students is that when you permit lesser-educated students into college level course it puts them in more of a disadvantage.

    The instructor cannot tutor.
    All entry level college students should have a grasp of grammar, spelling and other basic components of math and so on.
    One should, also, know how to type . . . and so on.
    These things should at least be brought up to level with the average entry-level student because when they're not it throws the entire balance of a class off.

    I became a teacher's aid for a while and helped check countless essays - spelling and grammar were far more horrid than I thought possible, yet these students were in college level classes.
    Essay after essay - small measures of improvement from the beginning to end of the semester but no one who was disadvantaged actually learned anything that would benefit them to advance to the next class - most had to repeat that same course.

    If people were truly concerned with helping those who are predisposed to lesser-quality education then they should focus wholeheartedly on improving all other factors, first, in an effort to bump those students up to a college-entry level when they do enter college. You can't just toss them into the fray and hope they survive because they won't. It's quite cruel, honestly.
    Type? Really? God, when I went to college I was a 2 finger typer. I could maybe hit ten to twelve words a minute, and that not particularly accurately. And this was before home computers with printers or word processors...

    Most larger colleges do offer remedial courses for people behind in certain areas, so there is a potential solution there.

    I do agree that helping low income children should happen before college, and have made that point on these boards repeatedly.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
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