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  • Yes, this os unfair to white students

    38 79.17%
  • No, this is fair to whites since it is additional enrollment

    5 10.42%
  • Maybe. I can see the arguments for both sides, it's not clear cut

    3 6.25%
  • Other

    2 4.17%
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Thread: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is a hypothetical, though it may very well be something some schools do. Please read the situation and respond accordingly.

    A college decides to increase it's overall enrollment by 100 students, but those 100 students would be selected only from minorities. All other enrollment would be decided based on the same process as in the past, with the 100 students being the best of the minority students who would not normally get accepted at the school due to grades or test scores or whatever.

    Would white students and potential white students have a legitimate grievance that this is unfair to them?
    Racial discrimination is still racial discrimination, so it should be illegal.
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Its unquestionably discrimination. As has been said, if you raise the enrollement by 100 you're either:

    1) saying you had capacity for another 100 kids

    or

    2) saying you don't have capacity but are doing it anyways, thus over extending the schools resources which is a detriment to all the other students

    You are choosing those 100 based not on merit, not on race, but on the LACK of merit and race. I say this because you're stating that you're 100 are required to have lower GPA's and SAT scores than would normally be allowed at the school.

    There is absolutely zero question that this is racial discrimination. You're enhancing enrollment by 100 and slotting it only for minorities. The very nature of disallowing certain people because of their race is the very nature of discrimination.

    What it comes down to is that some people like discrimination, and think there's a place for it as long as its "good" discrimination and "helps" people while the ones that are being harmed can be ignored because while the individual may not be any better off in their own life as a minority that gets in instead, that individual is from a race that is better off so he just needs to suck it up.

    There can be no question this is discrimination based on race, as the very criteria is requiring it to be so. It just depends if you're like Hazlnut or not, if you think discrimination is okay as long as its hurting groups you think can stand to be hurt and helping those you think need help.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Its unquestionably discrimination. As has been said, if you raise the enrollement by 100 you're either:

    1) saying you had capacity for another 100 kids

    or

    2) saying you don't have capacity but are doing it anyways, thus over extending the schools resources which is a detriment to all the other students

    You are choosing those 100 based not on merit, not on race, but on the LACK of merit and race. I say this because you're stating that you're 100 are required to have lower GPA's and SAT scores than would normally be allowed at the school.

    There is absolutely zero question that this is racial discrimination. You're enhancing enrollment by 100 and slotting it only for minorities. The very nature of disallowing certain people because of their race is the very nature of discrimination.

    What it comes down to is that some people like discrimination, and think there's a place for it as long as its "good" discrimination and "helps" people while the ones that are being harmed can be ignored because while the individual may not be any better off in their own life as a minority that gets in instead, that individual is from a race that is better off so he just needs to suck it up.

    There can be no question this is discrimination based on race, as the very criteria is requiring it to be so. It just depends if you're like Hazlnut or not, if you think discrimination is okay as long as its hurting groups you think can stand to be hurt and helping those you think need help.
    Good points.

    I would also like to point out that situations like this make a very unfair and biased assumption that all whites are better off than minorities just due to them being white.

    As if inner city poor whites do not exist.
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
    That would depend on the situation.

    If they were going to be accepted under some sort of school supported scholarship program because they were a high ranked applicant yet lacked the ability to secure the type of funding needed to attend the school, then I would have no problem.

    If they were going to be accepted because they are poor and they also had poor educational (and/or other) merits then it falls back in line with being discriminatory against those who were better qualified candidates in exchange for some "feel good" acceptance of an individual who has a high probability of NOT suceeding within your institution.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is a hypothetical, though it may very well be something some schools do. Please read the situation and respond accordingly.

    A college decides to increase it's overall enrollment by 100 students, but those 100 students would be selected only from minorities. All other enrollment would be decided based on the same process as in the past, with the 100 students being the best of the minority students who would not normally get accepted at the school due to grades or test scores or whatever.

    Would white students and potential white students have a legitimate grievance that this is unfair to them?
    This is unfair to the white students as well as other achieving (grade wise) minorities.

    You've pointed out two issues: Race being a factor in acceptance and lower-scores being overlooked.

    Entry Scores:
    When grades and pre-existing knowledge as a standard requirement for entry is overlooked or put aside intentionally then those who do already qualify and would benefit most from said available courses are being shafted.
    For those who don't, grade wise, qualify for immediate enrollment - they should take the necessary steps to step *up* to a college entry-level first so, when in class, they can actually keep up and have more success.
    Seats are limited, giving favor to under-achieving students will make it more difficult for everyone.

    Race:
    Race is not permitted as a criteria for determining if you're going to hire someone - likewise - it should not be permitted as qualification for entry into any type of program or activity. That is the basis of discrimination, even if the guise is to help out someone who's "purple" or "blue"
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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A kind of follow up question: If we changed it from minority students to low income students, would it be unfair to middle class/upper class students?
    Ultimately, at its truest sense, its still discrimination as its setting aside a block of enrollment for people that fit a very specific requirement. Now, that being said, ALL enrollment is discrimination in some way as you're discriminating against those with low test scores, low grades, etc. I have far more issues with discrimination based on race, which is something that you are born as and is impossible to change, than I do with things such as grades or even incomes because, while its harder to potentially change those things, it IS possible.

    I agree with Caine I think. If it was 100 spots for "low income" that basically was an assisted tuition program to make it possible for them to attend when money is the only thing that would've disqualified them, I'd have really little issue with it. It'd essentially be the equivilent of the school giving a shcolarship. If it was instead 100 spots for "low income" people only, and with lower requirement for entry based on that low income, then I'd may feel a bit worse about it but not as strongly as I would likely with race or sex based discrimination.

    And yes, this isn't just about race. JMU at one point was I believe rated as 65% female students, making males a significant minority on the school. I'd have issues, even though it would've benefited me, if JMU decided to set aside spots specifically for males only.

    Now here's where I'll throw some people off. I don't mind to much, especially if there's some kind of point based system to rank people once they're over the minimum requirements, that takes into account things like race, sex, out of state/country status, low income, etc in the hopes of providing a diverse student base in hopes that such will add to the education, both in life and academia, of students more than simply having the best test takers present. As long as its not a major factor in the decision, equal or less to something like the entry paper many want you to write. Something that may break a tie, but not likely to put someone over another candidate whose better all around.

    I do see the advantage of having a diverse college experience...one with people who may not be the best test takers but are great thinkers. People from various income levels and thus various experiences. People from other countries or even other states, bringing different culture to the campus. Different races and sexes, allowing people to be able to interact as they would in much of society. There IS a definite advantage to that, however not such an advantage that you should actively attempt to pick fully underqualified individuals over qualified ones or that you should punish people for the color of their skin or their gender by disallowing them entry based souly on that fact.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Would white students and potential white students have a legitimate grievance that this is unfair to them?
    They would not have a ligitimate grievance while discrimination against minorities still exists. Society is being deprived of what these minorities can potentially add to it, while the minorities are not receiving the opportunities needed to develop their potential.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Areopagitican View Post
    Why can't minorities compete on an even playing field, again?
    Again?!

    When did they ever get the opportunity to compete in an even playing field, in the first place? Positive discrimination has to force an even playing field, or else one wont happen.

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    Re: Hypothetical: Additional Enrollemnt for Minorities in Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Again?!

    When did they ever get the opportunity to compete in an even playing field, in the first place? Positive discrimination has to force an even playing field, or else one wont happen.
    Please tell me you didn't just use one of the most idiotic phrases out there today - "Positive Discrimination".

    Not to mention, “force an even playing field”? The very fact that the word “force” is involved means the playing field isn’t even.

    It’s impossible to force such a thing.

    The only way to get anywhere near a level playing field is to work at providing an equal K – 12 educations to everyone, no matter the area they live in.

    But the main issue I have with discriminating for minorities (which is the true meaning of the so-called “positive discrimination) is that it implies they can’t make it on their own.
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