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Gays in the Military

Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

  • Yes, do it now

    Votes: 65 67.7%

  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    Votes: 9 9.4%

  • No, do not change the law

    Votes: 12 12.5%

  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    Votes: 3 3.1%

  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 7 7.3%
  • Total voters
    96
rivrrat said:
Nope. Not in the military - at a fire department. But maybe that's why it was okay. Maybe civilians are just better able to handle situations like that, and still maintain professional behavior? It would seem, from some of the comments here, that many men in the military have a serious problem with focus and discipline and can't handle situations that don't seem to adversely affect so many civilians.

Maybe it's a training issue?

But can you tell me how it's unfair or inappropriate to sleep in the same room with the opposite gender?
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Ok, so you lived at the firehouse and had no private residence? And there was no form of separation from where you slept and where the males slept, and no seperate bathrooms.....right? You changed your clothes in front of your male coworkers, and you were free to sleep in whatever you liked while completely exposed to your male coworkers....
 
mac said:
Ok, so you lived at the firehouse and had no private residence?
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3 - 4 successive days and nights a week, yes, we lived and worked out of stations.

And there was no form of separation from where you slept and where the males slept, and no seperate bathrooms.....right?
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Nope.

You changed your clothes in front of your male coworkers, and you were free to sleep in whatever you liked while completely exposed to your male coworkers....
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Yes. I also changed clothes in front of both the male and female river guides I worked with - completely by choice.

I didn't find it an issue. So, why was it unfair to us?
 
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rivrrat said:
3 - 4 successive days and nights a week, yes, we lived and worked out of stations.


Nope.


Yes. I also changed clothes in front of both the male and female river guides I worked with - completely by choice.

I didn't find it an issue. So, why was it unfair to us?
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It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time. While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch. In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
 
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mac said:
It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time. While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female servicemember in a cohabitation situation whith members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. Re
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I doubt very much that most people in the military spend most of their time in open bay barracks.
 
mac said:
It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time.
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They're there to sleep. Much like why I was there with the firemen and medics. That I was only there 3-4 days and nights a week as opposed to 7 is irrelevant. For 72-96 hours a week, we lived together. When we weren't saving lives, that is.

While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip,
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Not on a camping trip, dear. On a daily basis, after every river trip. Many of whom I did not know. And I certainly didn't know a single damn one of them initially.

doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch.
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Why is it unfair? People CHOOSE to join the military, not like it's forced on them. If they have an issue with it, then maybe they shouldn't do the job. Much like my being bunked with a bunch of men I didn't know while we waited to be called to save people's lives. If bunking with them bothered me, I need not have been an EMT.

In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
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I know quite a few that would need it explained. But, like I said... we're civilians, so maybe we're just more disciplined and focused than the folks in the military. Maybe this should be addressed in military training.



I just don't see how anything about it is unfair. Unfair how? In what manner, exactly, is bunking with the opposite gender "unfair"?
 
mac said:
It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time. While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch. In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
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Why wouldn't it be fair if she was made aware before she joined that there was a possibility that she might have to cohabitate with members of the opposite sex? The military is an all volunteer force. If she knew that she could be living with people who were attracted to her, and she didn't like the arrangement, she could just not join. The same for people who are afraid of living with homosexuals. With DADT in place, it is known to every single service member that they may be living, berthing, showering, and/or sharing a barracks room with someone who may be homosexual. The only difference between now and when gays are allowed to serve openly is that some of those who are gay, that people didn't know about, might come out and say they are gay. But so what? There are still rules in place against sexual harassment and rape and even fraternization. These rules would still work the same as they always do.

Truthfully, if you go by statistics, a male servicemember should be more worried about a straight servicemember raping him than a gay one, since most male rape is perpetrated by men who identify themselves as heterosexual.

Male Rape myths and facts, the rape of men
The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

And, from what I witnessed in the Navy, even most of the sexual harassment against guys was perpetrated by heterosexual guys. In fact, the only guy I ever knew to sexually harass other guys who wasn't actually heterosexual, was self admitted bisexual, and married.
 
mac said:
Corected above. Apparently my incomplete sentance is more relevant than the argument.
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Yes, well that does rather speak to how relevant your incomplete sentence was to the argument.
 
roguenuke said:
Why wouldn't it be fair if she was made aware before she joined that there was a possibility that she might have to cohabitate with members of the opposite sex? The military is an all volunteer force. If she knew that she could be living with people who were attracted to her, and she didn't like the arrangement, she could just not join. The same for people who are afraid of living with homosexuals. With DADT in place, it is known to every single service member that they may be living, berthing, showering, and/or sharing a barracks room with someone who may be homosexual. The only difference between now and when gays are allowed to serve openly is that some of those who are gay, that people didn't know about, might come out and say they are gay. But so what? There are still rules in place against sexual harassment and rape and even fraternization. These rules would still work the same as they always do.

Truthfully, if you go by statistics, a male servicemember should be more worried about a straight servicemember raping him than a gay one, since most male rape is perpetrated by men who identify themselves as heterosexual.

Male Rape myths and facts, the rape of men
The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

And, from what I witnessed in the Navy, even most of the sexual harassment against guys was perpetrated by heterosexual guys. In fact, the only guy I ever knew to sexually harass other guys who wasn't actually heterosexual, was self admitted bisexual, and married.
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So, in support of your argument you are willing to say that individual rights are out the window? Servicemembers have no right to personal privacy because they volunteered?
 
mac said:
It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time.
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Some of us actually like cohabiting with people of the opposite sex. What is unfair about it? Let me tell you, if I had to pick between sharing berthing with a bunch of women or a bunch of other guys, I would go with the bunch of women.

While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch. In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
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Why doesn't she know the people she is living with? I think if she is going to live with someone she should really get to know them. I still fail to see the injustice here.
 
rivrrat said:
They're there to sleep. Much like why I was there with the firemen and medics. That I was only there 3-4 days and nights a week as opposed to 7 is irrelevant. For 72-96 hours a week, we lived together. When we weren't saving lives, that is.
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All you do at home is sleep? We're not talking three or four days a week. We're talking 7 days a week. This is where they live, this is their home. Would you take people that work in high stress environments, every single day, and then make them go home to a place they find uncomfortable? Can you figure out how to make it rougher? Quality of life for service members seems to be of no import to you so why don't we come up with more ways to make military service more difficult on people.

Not on a camping trip, dear. On a daily basis, after every river trip. Many of whom I did not know. And I certainly didn't know a single damn one of them initially.
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Do people have to pay extra to see you jump out of your canoe and change your clothes?

Why is it unfair? People CHOOSE to join the military, not like it's forced on them. If they have an issue with it, then maybe they shouldn't do the job. Much like my being bunked with a bunch of men I didn't know while we waited to be called to save people's lives. If bunking with them bothered me, I need not have been an EMT.
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again, because someone volunteers for military service they now have no right to personal privacy?
 
mac said:
So, in support of your argument you are willing to say that individual rights are out the window? Servicemembers have no right to personal privacy because they volunteered?
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What is the limit to that personal privacy? The servicemember joins with the knowledge of how much privacy they may or may not have, at least to an extent. I actually had more personal privacy on the ship than I thought I would have, but I still had to get dressed in front of other women. One of the most uncomfortable things I ever did was shower in an open bay shower with other women in two minutes. What made it uncomfortable was not the fact that there might be a woman who was gay and found me attractive, but rather that there might be 19 other women in that shower who were judging me on my naked body. And God forbid I have my period. How embarassing do you think it is for a woman to shower with anyone while on her period? Yet we do in bootcamp, otherwise we wouldn't get to take a shower for about a week. Truthfully, my fears were pointless because I'm pretty sure that most of the women in there with me were just doing the same thing I was, getting washed as fast as possible and getting out. After bootcamp, pretty much every service member throughout most of their career (unless they have some special ops job) will be able to take a shower in a private stall, if not a private head.
 
roguenuke said:
What is the limit to that personal privacy? The servicemember joins with the knowledge of how much privacy they may or may not have, at least to an extent. I actually had more personal privacy on the ship than I thought I would have, but I still had to get dressed in front of other women. One of the most uncomfortable things I ever did was shower in an open bay shower with other women in two minutes. What made it uncomfortable was not the fact that there might be a woman who was gay and found me attractive, but rather that there might be 19 other women in that shower who were judging me on my naked body. And God forbid I have my period. How embarassing do you think it is for a woman to shower with anyone while on her period? Yet we do in bootcamp, otherwise we wouldn't get to take a shower for about a week. Truthfully, my fears were pointless because I'm pretty sure that most of the women in there with me were just doing the same thing I was, getting washed as fast as possible and getting out. After bootcamp, pretty much every service member throughout most of their career (unless they have some special ops job) will be able to take a shower in a private stall, if not a private head.
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Would it be safe to say that you might be even more uncomfortable if the other people in that shower were male?
 
mac said:
Would it be safe to say that you might be even more uncomfortable if the other people in that shower were male?
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Not necessarily. It would depend on the situation. First, right now, I know that the military will not make men and women share berthing spaces. Second, if they did, and it was during bootcamp, I'd still feel uncomfortable, and maybe moreso due to the men showering with me, but it would be because I was attracted to them, not that they might be attracted to me. And the embarassment from having my period would be a lot worse in front of men, who are most certainly not comfortable with women's periods, no matter what sexuality they are. If it were later on in my career, then I might be uncomfortable around some men, but not all. While in the Navy, I only had male roommates when I lived off base. I am actually more comfortable around men because there isn't as much drama.

I have changed in the same area as some of the guys I worked with. It really wasn't a big deal. In fact, there were some guys who were more upset about it than I was, because they were nervous that I would file a sexual harassment suit against them, eventhough I voluntarily changed in the area, because there really wasn't any other nearby place to change and I was the first female to ever work in that shop.

I'm not afraid of being raped or even sexually assaulted by other servicemembers, certainly not while on duty and/or in a group shower. I know I have recourse, there are tons of witnesses, and I know that they know that there are rules against it. If they try something in a berthing or a shower, there will most likely be at least one other person in there. And if men and women shared berthing, there is actually a good chance that the other men and even the women who might be there would come to the aid of the one being assaulted.

I am a staunch believer in what makes people most uncomfortable about seeing members of the opposite sex naked is actually the foreignness of the anatomy of the opposite sex, not the actual sexual attraction. Men and women are different physically. Heterosexuals and homosexuals of the same sex have all the same parts (barring some deformity or unfortunate event). Their bodies basically operate and react the same way.
 
Panache said:
Why doesn't she know the people she is living with? I think if she is going to live with someone she should really get to know them. I still fail to see the injustice here.
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Junior soldiers/sailors reporting onboard a command don't have a say where their room is or who their roomate is. They are assigned a room based on bed availability and nothing else. It's only after he/she puts on a few paygrades and/or gets married that they can afford to move offbase to a place of their choosing. That's just stateside...throw deployed into the mix and it's even less accomodating. Most junior military personnel are assigned two to a room. A modern barracks room is very much like the average american master bedroom...with a smaller bathroom and closet. And thats it. That's the entirety of living space available to you and this person you just met. Imagine sitting at home in your master bedroom, doing your thing and the door opens up, someone walks in and says "hi, I'm living her too now."

The only real point to this tack is I'm trying to show that there is quite a bit that the average civilian doesn't take into account when they talk about repealing DADT. Most of us in the military could care less if someone is gay, but we don't necessarily want to share a rooms with them.

We all know that being homosexual doesn't affect how well someone does a job, but there are other effects the average civilian isn't taking into account. Hopefully, when the budget's go up because we have to build new barracks, you won't fight that. The only real way to deal with the situation is to make sure everyone, straight or gay, has their own room. That means a lot more room are required.
 
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roguenuke said:
Not necessarily. It would depend on the situation. First, right now, I know that the military will not make men and women share berthing spaces. Second, if they did, and it was during bootcamp, I'd still feel uncomfortable, and maybe moreso due to the men showering with me, but it would be because I was attracted to them, not that they might be attracted to me. And the embarassment from having my period would be a lot worse in front of men, who are most certainly not comfortable with women's periods, no matter what sexuality they are. If it were later on in my career, then I might be uncomfortable around some men, but not all. While in the Navy, I only had male roommates when I lived off base. I am actually more comfortable around men because there isn't as much drama.

I have changed in the same area as some of the guys I worked with. It really wasn't a big deal. In fact, there were some guys who were more upset about it than I was, because they were nervous that I would file a sexual harassment suit against them, eventhough I voluntarily changed in the area, because there really wasn't any other nearby place to change and I was the first female to ever work in that shop.

I'm not afraid of being raped or even sexually assaulted by other servicemembers, certainly not while on duty and/or in a group shower. I know I have recourse, there are tons of witnesses, and I know that they know that there are rules against it. If they try something in a berthing or a shower, there will most likely be at least one other person in there. And if men and women shared berthing, there is actually a good chance that the other men and even the women who might be there would come to the aid of the one being assaulted.

I am a staunch believer in what makes people most uncomfortable about seeing members of the opposite sex naked is actually the foreignness of the anatomy of the opposite sex, not the actual sexual attraction. Men and women are different physically. Heterosexuals and homosexuals of the same sex have all the same parts (barring some deformity or unfortunate event). Their bodies basically operate and react the same way.
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Have you known anyone during your time in the military that thought they had been sexually harassed, or even been privy to any sexual harassment cases?

Choosing to reside with males offbase is an entirely different subject. I'm sure you didn't just pick some random guys and go get an apartment. Choosing to live with people, male, female, straight, or gay, that you know and trust is far different to being assigned to live with them.
 
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mac said:
Junior soldiers/sailors reporting onboard a command don't have a say where their room is or who their roomate is. They are assigned a room based on bed availability and nothing else. It's only after he/she puts on a few paygrades and/or gets married that they can afford to move offbase to a place of their choosing. That's just stateside...throw deployed into the mix and it's even less accomodating. Most junior military personnel are assigned two to a room. A modern barracks room is very much like the average american master bedroom...with a smaller bathroom and closet. And thats it. That's the entirety of living space available to you and this person you just met. Imagine sitting at home in your master bedroom, doing your thing and the door opens up, someone walks in and says "hi, I'm living her too now."

The only real point to this tack is I'm trying to show that there is quite a bit that the average civilian doesn't take into account when they talk about repealing DADT. Most of us in the military could care less if someone is gay, but we don't necessarily want to share a rooms with them.

We all know that being homosexual doesn't affect how well someone does a job, but there are other effects the average civilian isn't taking into account. Hopefully, when the budget's go up because we have to build new barracks, you won't fight that. The only real way to deal with the situation is to make sure everyone, straight or gay, has their own room. That means a lot more room are required.
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E3 and below can move off base with command permission, which I never saw turned down. First question I was asked when I got to my squadron was if I was going to be moving off base right away.

The whole "own room" thing is retarded. Straits room with gays now in the military. There is zero reason to believe this will some how change. It's just an excuse, it's not a real issue.
 
Redress said:
E3 and below can move off base with command permission, which I never saw turned down. First question I was asked when I got to my squadron was if I was going to be moving off base right away.

The whole "own room" thing is retarded. Straits room with gays now in the military. There is zero reason to believe this will some how change. It's just an excuse, it's not a real issue.
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I appreciate you calling me retarded, I will have to reciprocate some time. E3 and below can move of base WITH command permission, correct. Command permission is usually only given when the barracks are full or near full. Further, in many places overseas, very few or none can move off base regardless of paygrade.
 
mac said:
I can do searches, what I was wondering is if you knew the answer. And you still haven't answered my question. Let me ask another, could a straight male walking into his barracks/dorm room to find his roommate masturbating be considered sexual harassment?
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No. This is not sexual harassment.

That **** happens all the ****ing time with straight maies in the miliitary now.
 
Caine said:
No. This is not sexual harassment.

That **** happens all the ****ing time with straight maies in the miliitary now.
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Yep, until straight male goes to his command and claims that gay male is masturbating in front of him.
 
mac said:
Yep, until straight male goes to his command and claims that gay male is masturbating in front of him.
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Your really pulling crap out your ass now aren't you?
 
Your Star said:
Your really pulling crap out your ass now aren't you?
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I suppose, I mean...no one does things like that. As soon as it's sanctioned by the government, everyone will no longer be opposed to it. Or, maybe I've seen a few things like this in the last 22 years....
 
mac said:
All you do at home is sleep? We're not talking three or four days a week. We're talking 7 days a week. This is where they live, this is their home. Would you take people that work in high stress environments, every single day, and then make them go home to a place they find uncomfortable?
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It wasn't uncomfortable.

Can you figure out how to make it rougher?
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It wasn't rough

Quality of life for service members seems to be of no import to you so why don't we come up with more ways to make military service more difficult on people.
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It wasn't difficult.

Do people have to pay extra to see you jump out of your canoe and change your clothes?
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What are you talking about?

again, because someone volunteers for military service they now have no right to personal privacy?
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Seeing as though they all sleep together in barracks, I would guess not. Are you suggesting that all enlistees have their own rooms?? :shock: I didn't realize that you were upset about them living together *period*. That's even crazier.

Or are you suggesting that if a bunch of men live together they all have privacy. But if you toss a woman in there, suddenly no one has privacy? Surely that's not what you're suggesting.
 
mac said:
I suppose, I mean...no one does things like that. As soon as it's sanctioned by the government, everyone will no longer be opposed to it. Or, maybe I've seen a few things like this in the last 22 years....
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Allowing LGBT people to serve openly in the military isn't government sanctioned sexual harassment. Like I said, pulling crap out your ass.
 
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