View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

Voters
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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #381
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time.
    They're there to sleep. Much like why I was there with the firemen and medics. That I was only there 3-4 days and nights a week as opposed to 7 is irrelevant. For 72-96 hours a week, we lived together. When we weren't saving lives, that is.

    While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip,
    Not on a camping trip, dear. On a daily basis, after every river trip. Many of whom I did not know. And I certainly didn't know a single damn one of them initially.

    doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch.
    Why is it unfair? People CHOOSE to join the military, not like it's forced on them. If they have an issue with it, then maybe they shouldn't do the job. Much like my being bunked with a bunch of men I didn't know while we waited to be called to save people's lives. If bunking with them bothered me, I need not have been an EMT.

    In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
    I know quite a few that would need it explained. But, like I said... we're civilians, so maybe we're just more disciplined and focused than the folks in the military. Maybe this should be addressed in military training.



    I just don't see how anything about it is unfair. Unfair how? In what manner, exactly, is bunking with the opposite gender "unfair"?

  2. #382
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time. While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch. In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
    Why wouldn't it be fair if she was made aware before she joined that there was a possibility that she might have to cohabitate with members of the opposite sex? The military is an all volunteer force. If she knew that she could be living with people who were attracted to her, and she didn't like the arrangement, she could just not join. The same for people who are afraid of living with homosexuals. With DADT in place, it is known to every single service member that they may be living, berthing, showering, and/or sharing a barracks room with someone who may be homosexual. The only difference between now and when gays are allowed to serve openly is that some of those who are gay, that people didn't know about, might come out and say they are gay. But so what? There are still rules in place against sexual harassment and rape and even fraternization. These rules would still work the same as they always do.

    Truthfully, if you go by statistics, a male servicemember should be more worried about a straight servicemember raping him than a gay one, since most male rape is perpetrated by men who identify themselves as heterosexual.

    Male Rape myths and facts, the rape of men
    The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

    And, from what I witnessed in the Navy, even most of the sexual harassment against guys was perpetrated by heterosexual guys. In fact, the only guy I ever knew to sexually harass other guys who wasn't actually heterosexual, was self admitted bisexual, and married.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  3. #383
    Irrelevant Pissant

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Corected above. Apparently my incomplete sentance is more relevant than the argument.
    Yes, well that does rather speak to how relevant your incomplete sentence was to the argument.

  4. #384
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Why wouldn't it be fair if she was made aware before she joined that there was a possibility that she might have to cohabitate with members of the opposite sex? The military is an all volunteer force. If she knew that she could be living with people who were attracted to her, and she didn't like the arrangement, she could just not join. The same for people who are afraid of living with homosexuals. With DADT in place, it is known to every single service member that they may be living, berthing, showering, and/or sharing a barracks room with someone who may be homosexual. The only difference between now and when gays are allowed to serve openly is that some of those who are gay, that people didn't know about, might come out and say they are gay. But so what? There are still rules in place against sexual harassment and rape and even fraternization. These rules would still work the same as they always do.

    Truthfully, if you go by statistics, a male servicemember should be more worried about a straight servicemember raping him than a gay one, since most male rape is perpetrated by men who identify themselves as heterosexual.

    Male Rape myths and facts, the rape of men
    The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer

    And, from what I witnessed in the Navy, even most of the sexual harassment against guys was perpetrated by heterosexual guys. In fact, the only guy I ever knew to sexually harass other guys who wasn't actually heterosexual, was self admitted bisexual, and married.
    So, in support of your argument you are willing to say that individual rights are out the window? Servicemembers have no right to personal privacy because they volunteered?

  5. #385
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Yes, well that does rather speak to how relevant your incomplete sentence was to the argument.
    Touche.......

  6. #386
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    It's unfair because this is home to these folks. This is where they live all the time.
    Some of us actually like cohabiting with people of the opposite sex. What is unfair about it? Let me tell you, if I had to pick between sharing berthing with a bunch of women or a bunch of other guys, I would go with the bunch of women.

    While you may be completely comfortable changing your clothes in front of your fellow river guides while on a camping trip, doesn't mean it's fair to put a female service member in cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that she doesn't know. That's not a stretch. In fact I don't know to many people that would need that explained to them.
    Why doesn't she know the people she is living with? I think if she is going to live with someone she should really get to know them. I still fail to see the injustice here.

  7. #387
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    They're there to sleep. Much like why I was there with the firemen and medics. That I was only there 3-4 days and nights a week as opposed to 7 is irrelevant. For 72-96 hours a week, we lived together. When we weren't saving lives, that is.
    All you do at home is sleep? We're not talking three or four days a week. We're talking 7 days a week. This is where they live, this is their home. Would you take people that work in high stress environments, every single day, and then make them go home to a place they find uncomfortable? Can you figure out how to make it rougher? Quality of life for service members seems to be of no import to you so why don't we come up with more ways to make military service more difficult on people.

    Not on a camping trip, dear. On a daily basis, after every river trip. Many of whom I did not know. And I certainly didn't know a single damn one of them initially.
    Do people have to pay extra to see you jump out of your canoe and change your clothes?

    Why is it unfair? People CHOOSE to join the military, not like it's forced on them. If they have an issue with it, then maybe they shouldn't do the job. Much like my being bunked with a bunch of men I didn't know while we waited to be called to save people's lives. If bunking with them bothered me, I need not have been an EMT.
    again, because someone volunteers for military service they now have no right to personal privacy?

  8. #388
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    So, in support of your argument you are willing to say that individual rights are out the window? Servicemembers have no right to personal privacy because they volunteered?
    What is the limit to that personal privacy? The servicemember joins with the knowledge of how much privacy they may or may not have, at least to an extent. I actually had more personal privacy on the ship than I thought I would have, but I still had to get dressed in front of other women. One of the most uncomfortable things I ever did was shower in an open bay shower with other women in two minutes. What made it uncomfortable was not the fact that there might be a woman who was gay and found me attractive, but rather that there might be 19 other women in that shower who were judging me on my naked body. And God forbid I have my period. How embarassing do you think it is for a woman to shower with anyone while on her period? Yet we do in bootcamp, otherwise we wouldn't get to take a shower for about a week. Truthfully, my fears were pointless because I'm pretty sure that most of the women in there with me were just doing the same thing I was, getting washed as fast as possible and getting out. After bootcamp, pretty much every service member throughout most of their career (unless they have some special ops job) will be able to take a shower in a private stall, if not a private head.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  9. #389
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    What is the limit to that personal privacy? The servicemember joins with the knowledge of how much privacy they may or may not have, at least to an extent. I actually had more personal privacy on the ship than I thought I would have, but I still had to get dressed in front of other women. One of the most uncomfortable things I ever did was shower in an open bay shower with other women in two minutes. What made it uncomfortable was not the fact that there might be a woman who was gay and found me attractive, but rather that there might be 19 other women in that shower who were judging me on my naked body. And God forbid I have my period. How embarassing do you think it is for a woman to shower with anyone while on her period? Yet we do in bootcamp, otherwise we wouldn't get to take a shower for about a week. Truthfully, my fears were pointless because I'm pretty sure that most of the women in there with me were just doing the same thing I was, getting washed as fast as possible and getting out. After bootcamp, pretty much every service member throughout most of their career (unless they have some special ops job) will be able to take a shower in a private stall, if not a private head.
    Would it be safe to say that you might be even more uncomfortable if the other people in that shower were male?

  10. #390
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Would it be safe to say that you might be even more uncomfortable if the other people in that shower were male?
    Not necessarily. It would depend on the situation. First, right now, I know that the military will not make men and women share berthing spaces. Second, if they did, and it was during bootcamp, I'd still feel uncomfortable, and maybe moreso due to the men showering with me, but it would be because I was attracted to them, not that they might be attracted to me. And the embarassment from having my period would be a lot worse in front of men, who are most certainly not comfortable with women's periods, no matter what sexuality they are. If it were later on in my career, then I might be uncomfortable around some men, but not all. While in the Navy, I only had male roommates when I lived off base. I am actually more comfortable around men because there isn't as much drama.

    I have changed in the same area as some of the guys I worked with. It really wasn't a big deal. In fact, there were some guys who were more upset about it than I was, because they were nervous that I would file a sexual harassment suit against them, eventhough I voluntarily changed in the area, because there really wasn't any other nearby place to change and I was the first female to ever work in that shop.

    I'm not afraid of being raped or even sexually assaulted by other servicemembers, certainly not while on duty and/or in a group shower. I know I have recourse, there are tons of witnesses, and I know that they know that there are rules against it. If they try something in a berthing or a shower, there will most likely be at least one other person in there. And if men and women shared berthing, there is actually a good chance that the other men and even the women who might be there would come to the aid of the one being assaulted.

    I am a staunch believer in what makes people most uncomfortable about seeing members of the opposite sex naked is actually the foreignness of the anatomy of the opposite sex, not the actual sexual attraction. Men and women are different physically. Heterosexuals and homosexuals of the same sex have all the same parts (barring some deformity or unfortunate event). Their bodies basically operate and react the same way.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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