View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #301
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Doctors? Seriously? I'm pretty sure there are openly gay doctors. I don't even think it's legal for a hospital to fire a doctor for being gay.

    Actually, really it is that simple. Even the berthing issue. Straight and gay men and women already share berthings and heads.

    As I've pointed out in other threads before, there are few times when many military personnel will actually have to share a shower or even really be naked for a considerable amount of time in front of others. Open bay showers are not common in the military. According to my husband, who has been in combat zones, they really aren't even common in those areas. Boot camp you have open bay showers, but from my experience in boot camp, 20 people have about 2 min to use 6 shower heads to completely wash their bodies (and this was the Navy). The only thing you are worried about in a boot camp shower is getting as clean as possible as fast as possible, gay or straight. Normally, military members do not actually share showers.

    Berthing is different, but not exactly hard to regulate. Having sex on duty is still punishable. Raping or attempting to rape or sexually assaulting someone is still punishable. It doesn't matter what the sexuality of the person is. Inappropriate relationships are still punishable.

    And besides all this, most of the homosexuals are not going to be flaunting themselves as homosexuals, even when they are allowed to serve openly. The social stigma attached with being gay isn't going to just go away. Many homosexuals may keep themselves in the closet on-duty voluntarily just to fit in. The biggest difference will be that they won't have to worry about something slipping about them actually being gay. They won't have to worry about getting turned in, and subsequently kicked out because someone seen them out in town with someone they are dating. They
    Of course there are openly gay doctors. You have missed the point I was making.

    First, God Bless your husband, but has he spent months on end at sea on a ship or submarine? There berthing situations in the military with which you and your husband are unfamiliar. Many of which I have experienced in my 22 years in the Navy.

    Second, I think you've misunderstood me. I am not speaking against repealing DADT. Personally I could care less what anyone does with their free time. What I am saying is, the public and congress needs to understand that the service chiefs are going to need some time to work this out.

    Third, every ship in the US Navy is open bay for the enlisted folks. So actually, really, it's not that simple.

  2. #302
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Ive already stated, and you've responded to such, that I believe the military is capable of handling it at this point.

    To suggest that soldiers are robots who follow orders regardless though, that is where I disagree.
    That's a fair critique of what I wrote, Caine.

    That's not quite what I meant though either. I just didn't write out the elaborate answer - which I now feel obliged to do.

    When a soldier knows that part of his job is accepting his fellow soldiers, they will do so. That's what they're taught, and it's what they believe. You have a star on your profile. So do I. I'm not saying anything either of the two of us don't already fully understand.

    Soldiers will accept other soldiers. Period.

    If those soldiers are black, other soldiers will accept them.
    If those soldiers are Jews, other soldiers will accept them.
    If those soldiers are women, other soldiers will accept them.

    And if those soldiers are gay, other soldiers will accept them.

    Because soldiers don't care about much beyond, "This is my ally. This is part of my unit. This is my fellow soldier, and we're going to do our job."

    That is what I meant to say.

    I in no way intended to portray the modern soldier as an automaton. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The modern soldier is very independent, very intelligent, highly trained and well-educated not just in their craft but in deep analysis of almost all facets of their world. They are enlightened and educated, hard working and disciplined. The modern soldier is anything but a drone, and I apologize if I gave the impression that I felt otherwise.

  3. #303
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    That's a fair critique of what I wrote, Caine.

    That's not quite what I meant though either. I just didn't write out the elaborate answer - which I now feel obliged to do.

    When a soldier knows that part of his job is accepting his fellow soldiers, they will do so. That's what they're taught, and it's what they believe. You have a star on your profile. So do I. I'm not saying anything either of the two of us don't already fully understand.

    Soldiers will accept other soldiers. Period.

    If those soldiers are black, other soldiers will accept them.
    If those soldiers are Jews, other soldiers will accept them.
    If those soldiers are women, other soldiers will accept them.

    And if those soldiers are gay, other soldiers will accept them.

    Because soldiers don't care about much beyond, "This is my ally. This is part of my unit. This is my fellow soldier, and we're going to do our job."

    That is what I meant to say.

    I in no way intended to portray the modern soldier as an automaton. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The modern soldier is very independent, very intelligent, highly trained and well-educated not just in their craft but in deep analysis of almost all facets of their world. They are enlightened and educated, hard working and disciplined. The modern soldier is anything but a drone, and I apologize if I gave the impression that I felt otherwise.



    this is not always true. I refused orders that were illegal twice.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #304
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    this is not always true. I refused orders that were illegal twice.
    Good on ya'.

    Panda bears mate once every seven years.


    While admirable (and I'm being serious), neither your statement nor my last statement have anything to do with the topic at hand, as such an order would not be illegal.

  5. #305
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Yep......


    Everybody already knows gays are serving under DADT. Sex is still illegal on base except for married people. All this means is if a gay soldier goes home to a same sex partner they have no worries of getting discharged for that.
    where did you get this ridiculous information? Sex is only illegal in combat zones where getting pregnant puts the mother at risk.

  6. #306
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Good on ya'.

    Panda bears mate once every seven years.


    While admirable (and I'm being serious), neither your statement nor my last statement have anything to do with the topic at hand, as such an order would not be illegal.



    Well, the point was, your all or nothing argument, is not different than your oppositions. Just like this forum, some of us were for it, some were against it, and some like myself simply didn't care. That said. Not all would "Accept it" some would not re-enlist, some would try to get out, and some would simply put up with it.


    And you talk about those of us who served in actual combat type units as if we somehow are different than others. I'll tell you what. When I was throwing JDAMS around, I didn't give a **** where the dood laying down cover was sticking his junk during his off time.... I couldn't say the same for others though, and knew several who would.


    Humans are humans.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #307
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Well, the point was, your all or nothing argument, is not different than your oppositions. Just like this forum, some of us were for it, some were against it, and some like myself simply didn't care. That said. Not all would "Accept it" some would not re-enlist, some would try to get out, and some would simply put up with it.
    A fair critique. I've used a blanket statement where it would be more appropriate to use "some, many, most" and so on.

    I don't believe that undermines my point.


    And you talk about those of us who served in actual combat type units as if we somehow are different than others. I'll tell you what. When I was throwing JDAMS around, I didn't give a **** where the dood laying down cover was sticking his junk during his off time.... I couldn't say the same for others though, and knew several who would.

    Humans are humans.

    You're right that some would leave the military as a result of the new policy. That would open the way for new talent, potentially better talent, to come in. The military is also back-logged. My nephew is currently on the waiting list to become a Marine. It'll be nine months before he even gets a chance to be taken. They're that backed up.

    The Air Force and Navy had similar lines. The Army could get him in right away...


    ::cough::



    I don't think the idea that some folks either couldn't or wouldn't adapt to modernity in the military is a reason to not modernize the military.




    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    where did you get this ridiculous information? Sex is only illegal in combat zones where getting pregnant puts the mother at risk.
    It's illegal?

    News to me... I know several more felons than I thought I did then. That's funny.
    Last edited by Alastor; 06-16-10 at 09:50 AM.

  8. #308
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You're right that some would leave the military as a result of the new policy. That would open the way for new talent, potentially better talent, to come in. The military is also back-logged. My nephew is currently on the waiting list to become a Marine. It'll be nine months before he even gets a chance to be taken. They're that backed up.


    The Air Force and Navy had similar lines. The Army could get him in right away...


    ::cough::

    Potentially better, potentially worse. You can't put a shine on something that is an unknown.




    as for a backlog, I'm not to sure about that. We had two kids sign up from our jits school and there was no delay whatsoever for the Marines.






    I don't think the idea that some folks either couldn't or wouldn't adapt to modernity in the military is a reason to not modernize the military.


    I have no issue with repealing DADT, I just don't think messing with it during 2 wars is in the best interest of the force.


    DADT, in reality had little effect on policy anyway.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  9. #309
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    as for a backlog, I'm not to sure about that. We had two kids sign up from our jits school and there was no delay whatsoever for the Marines.
    Perhaps it depends on the MOS. All I know is I begged the recruiter to get the kid out of my house ASAP (do you know what it costs to feed a 19 year-old these days?), and he said the best he could do was nine months.

    I have no issue with repealing DADT, I just don't think messing with it during 2 wars is in the best interest of the force.
    Again, on one hand I agree with you. There's no need to exacerbate their already daunting plight.

    On the other hand, it's not really ever an ideal time, and if not now, when?

    Beyond that, our government has pretty much crapped all over the current generation of soldiers, so I don't see that this would be a major impact compared to 36 month deployments, inadequate weapons, armor, housing, food, medical support, psyschological support, absence of training or mismanaged military policy.

    Again, I think that for the vast majority of our soldiers, this is the least of their problems.

    DADT, in reality had little effect on policy anyway.
    True. I don't ever recall any of us actually giving two craps about the policy one way or another. Underneath the politics, the soldiers are human - just as you said.

  10. #310
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Perhaps it depends on the MOS. All I know is I begged the recruiter to get the kid out of my house ASAP (do you know what it costs to feed a 19 year-old these days?), and he said the best he could do was nine months.

    That is what I was thinking.



    Again, on one hand I agree with you. There's no need to exacerbate their already daunting plight.

    On the other hand, it's not really ever an ideal time, and if not now, when?

    When our troops are home from afghanistan and Iraq. 1998 would have been a good year.


    Beyond that, our government has pretty much crapped all over the current generation of soldiers, so I don't see that this would be a major impact compared to 36 month deployments, inadequate weapons, armor, housing, food, medical support, psyschological support, absence of training or mismanaged military policy.

    you think its only the current generation? this has been so since before the roman empire.




    Again, I think that for the vast majority of our soldiers, this is the least of their problems.



    True. I don't ever recall any of us actually giving two craps about the policy one way or another. Underneath the politics, the soldiers are human - just as you said.


    The only thing I remember being pissed about, was that some dirtbag draft dodgers first move as POTUS was to meddle with the military.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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