View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

Voters
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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #281
    Irrelevant Pissant

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Erm... Actually that's not historically accurate.

    Racial integration was first achieved in... Wait for it... Wait for it... The military. Religious integration was first achieved in... The military. Sexual integration was first achieved in... The military.

    In each of these cases it was done long before it was popular in the mainstream.

    Historically, the military is where we start social changes, not the other way around. This is one of the arguments in favor of a compulsary military service.

    Our education system (schools) is another place where we've installed social change historically.

    Both institutions have a precedent for being a productive place and way to enact social change.
    Actually, racial integration, religious integration, and sexual integration were all achieved aboard pirate ships in the mid-eighteenth century. =)

  2. #282
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Actually, racial integration, religious integration, and sexual integration were all achieved aboard pirate ships in the mid-eighteenth century. =)
    But those were murderous, violent, savage, and uncivilized bandits!!!

    Such things have no place in civilized society!!!

    /sarcasm
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  3. #283
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    It might be up to the President and Congress, but they aren't the ones who have to deal with the day to day problems created by social experimentation with the military.

    Any President worth his vote is going to carefully consider the advice of those who actually lead and run the military.
    A soldier will adapt, and they'll follow the orders they're given. That's a soldier's job.

    Just like it was when blacks were integrated. Just like when women were integrated.

    It's been done before. It's worked well before. Anyone who claims the military isn't capable of handling it isn't being honest; they're making excuses.

  4. #284
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    I always wonder when I see these discussions how many of the commentators serve or have ever served in the Armed forces. How many have any idea what it's like other than what they've seen in movies?

  5. #285
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I love the argument against allowing gays to serve openly. In the movies soldiers are portrayed as these tough guys who take verbal and physical abuse all day long from some sadistic drill sergeant without flinching. But then so many people seem to think that they are really a bunch of sissies whose delicate feelings and insecurities need to be coddled and treated with sensitivity.

    I think that if anyone can't handle being ogled by someone they aren't attracted to, then they just aren't cut out for the military. I think we should expect our soldiers to be made of sterner stuff than that.



    This happens to the Greatness that is the Good Reverend ALL THE TIME.... I mean ALL THE TIME.... then again, I can't believe its me either sometimes.
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  6. #286
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I always wonder when I see these discussions how many of the commentators serve or have ever served in the Armed forces. How many have any idea what it's like other than what they've seen in movies?
    You don't have to wonder too much on here. Many people who have served and post on here, have either their award for doing so or have referenced it somewhere on this forum. Checking out their profiles or checking out the military thread is a good place to start.

    Not sure what you are going for though. We actually have people who have served on both sides of this issue. Even some in combat MOSs on both sides. I was Navy, and absolutely believe that gays should be allowed to serve openly. I served with some, and we had very little problems, and none actually directly because the people were gay.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  7. #287
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You don't have to wonder too much on here. Many people who have served and post on here, have either their award for doing so or have referenced it somewhere on this forum. Checking out their profiles or checking out the military thread is a good place to start.

    Not sure what you are going for though. We actually have people who have served on both sides of this issue. Even some in combat MOSs on both sides. I was Navy, and absolutely believe that gays should be allowed to serve openly. I served with some, and we had very little problems, and none actually directly because the people were gay.
    I think the issue for the military services is more one of logistics than morality at this point. More specifically, birthing. Have you heard of any strong opposition from the services to repealing DADT? The services are just asking for some time to figure out how to implement.....however, a great majority of the folks I hear squaking about it have no real knowledge of what the impact is on the services. They think it's the same thing as allowing openly gay school teachers, or doctors into their communities. It's just not that simple in regards to the military.

  8. #288
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    I think the issue for the military services is more one of logistics than morality at this point. More specifically, birthing. Have you heard of any strong opposition from the services to repealing DADT? The services are just asking for some time to figure out how to implement.....however, a great majority of the folks I hear squaking about it have no real knowledge of what the impact is on the services. They think it's the same thing as allowing openly gay school teachers, or doctors into their communities. It's just not that simple in regards to the military.
    Doctors? Seriously? I'm pretty sure there are openly gay doctors. I don't even think it's legal for a hospital to fire a doctor for being gay.

    Actually, really it is that simple. Even the berthing issue. Straight and gay men and women already share berthings and heads.

    As I've pointed out in other threads before, there are few times when many military personnel will actually have to share a shower or even really be naked for a considerable amount of time in front of others. Open bay showers are not common in the military. According to my husband, who has been in combat zones, they really aren't even common in those areas. Boot camp you have open bay showers, but from my experience in boot camp, 20 people have about 2 min to use 6 shower heads to completely wash their bodies (and this was the Navy). The only thing you are worried about in a boot camp shower is getting as clean as possible as fast as possible, gay or straight. Normally, military members do not actually share showers.

    Berthing is different, but not exactly hard to regulate. Having sex on duty is still punishable. Raping or attempting to rape or sexually assaulting someone is still punishable. It doesn't matter what the sexuality of the person is. Inappropriate relationships are still punishable.

    And besides all this, most of the homosexuals are not going to be flaunting themselves as homosexuals, even when they are allowed to serve openly. The social stigma attached with being gay isn't going to just go away. Many homosexuals may keep themselves in the closet on-duty voluntarily just to fit in. The biggest difference will be that they won't have to worry about something slipping about them actually being gay. They won't have to worry about getting turned in, and subsequently kicked out because someone seen them out in town with someone they are dating. They
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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  9. #289
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Doctors? Seriously? I'm pretty sure there are openly gay doctors. I don't even think it's legal for a hospital to fire a doctor for being gay.

    Actually, really it is that simple. Even the berthing issue. Straight and gay men and women already share berths and heads.

    As I've pointed out in other threads before, there are few times when many military personnel will actually have to share a shower or even really be naked for a considerable amount of time in front of others. Open bay showers are not common in the military. According to my husband, who has been in combat zones, they really aren't even common in those areas. Boot camp you have open bay showers, but from my experience in boot camp, 20 people have about 2 min to use 6 shower heads to completely wash their bodies (and this was the Navy). The only thing you are worried about in a boot camp shower is getting as clean as possible as fast as possible, gay or straight. Normally, military members do not actually share showers.

    Berthing is different, but not exactly hard to regulate. Having sex on duty is still punishable. Raping or attempting to rape or sexually assaulting someone is still punishable. It doesn't matter what the sexuality of the person is. Inappropriate relationships are still punishable.

    And besides all this, most of the homosexuals are not going to be flaunting themselves as homosexuals, even when they are allowed to serve openly. The social stigma attached with being gay isn't going to just go away. Many homosexuals may keep themselves in the closet on-duty voluntarily just to fit in. The biggest difference will be that they won't have to worry about something slipping about them actually being gay. They won't have to worry about getting turned in, and subsequently kicked out because someone seen them out in town with someone they are dating. They
    However, to correctly implement this change with minimal impact, it seems an obvious necessity to prepare measures directed toward preventing and responding to the majority of issues that will arise.

    It is NOT as easy as flipping a light switch.

    And issues WILL arise.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #290
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    Besides, name me one of those military organizations that have our efficiency and capability.
    I think the reason for the military capability of the US is the funding, not DADT
    The poor complain; they always do
    But thatís just idle chatter
    Our system brings reward to all
    At least all those who matter.

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