View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

Voters
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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #271
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    So instead of punishing the bigots who beat up kids for being gay, we're going to punish the victims instead.
    Last I remember we are not punishing anyone, since we are getting rid of DADT.

    As far as in the past, gays were not nearly as accepted as they are today, in the past it would have been a much bigger problem, and I am sorry but at the time, I do believe that folks "in the know" realized that it would probably create a bigger problem then it is worth.

    The US Military is not a social experiement, its our country's fighting force. Their mission needs to be taken more seriously than some guinea pig social experiment.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  2. #272
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I beg to differ.

    That is not the type of mentality that works in the modern military. Well, in most branches at least. You'll still find people who are blatantly racist in the military as well - again they're present in some branches more than others.

    Most of the military isn't comprised of a bunch of club-toting neanderthals however. They're not oblivious to the fact that gays are now and always have been part of the military, nor do they "wig out" over the idea.

    If they're that inherently psychotic that they'd lash out about someone's sexuality, they're also going to lash out about other things as well, and there's really not much to be done about it aside from either keeping them out of the military to begin with, or resolving it the way we would if they lashed out at a female, an African-American, or a civilian.

    If they can't restrain themselves from lashing out, they don't belong there anyway - in which case they should be found and removed, rather than removing those that we're worried they might lash out towards.
    You are right, and that is why DADT and the denial of the ability to serve our country to Gays is going to be removed. As our "modern" military, as well as our "modern" social climate is more accepting of gays, thus the problem isn't going to be as big now as it once was believed (rightly so) it would be.

    I answered a question, I didn't state I agree that the answer applies to our modern military/social climate.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  3. #273
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    I voted other, I think the DADT should be repealed, but not in the middle of two wars.


    That said, I don't care where you stick your junk. I didn't make my enlistment about my genitalia, and neither did anyone I came across, some who may or may not have been gay.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  4. #274
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    You are right, and that is why DADT and the denial of the ability to serve our country to Gays is going to be removed. As our "modern" military, as well as our "modern" social climate is more accepting of gays, thus the problem isn't going to be as big now as it once was believed (rightly so) it would be.

    I answered a question, I didn't state I agree that the answer applies to our modern military/social climate.
    Fair enough. I appreciate the clarity on the stance - as opposed to your stance.

  5. #275
    Advisor Regicollis's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The US Military is not a social experiement, its our country's fighting force. Their mission needs to be taken more seriously than some guinea pig social experiment.
    Allowing gays to serve openly is not an experiment. They're already doing it in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Russia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, The United Kingdom and Uruguay.

    It has been done for years now. Why would so many countries do it if it was a dangerous "social experiment"?
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  6. #276
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    The US Military is not a social experiement, its our country's fighting force. Their mission needs to be taken more seriously than some guinea pig social experiment.
    Erm... Actually that's not historically accurate.

    Racial integration was first achieved in... Wait for it... Wait for it... The military. Religious integration was first achieved in... The military. Sexual integration was first achieved in... The military.

    In each of these cases it was done long before it was popular in the mainstream.

    Historically, the military is where we start social changes, not the other way around. This is one of the arguments in favor of a compulsary military service.

    Our education system (schools) is another place where we've installed social change historically.

    Both institutions have a precedent for being a productive place and way to enact social change.

  7. #277
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Regicollis View Post
    Allowing gays to serve openly is not an experiment. They're already doing it in Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Colombia, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, the Philippines, Romania, Russia, Slovenia, South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, The United Kingdom and Uruguay.

    It has been done for years now. Why would so many countries do it if it was a dangerous "social experiment"?
    Nice post cropping. Pay attention to other posts, I speaking of the reasons why we haven't done it in the past.

    However, that said, we are the United States of America, we are not Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada, Columbia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Luxembourg (seriously?), Malta, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Peru, Phillipines, Romania, Russia, Slovenia (seriously?), South Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, UK, or Uruguay.

    We have a different social makeup than those countries, just like those countries have different social makeups than each other. Just because one country enacts a policy doesn't mean it suits all those other countries.

    Years ago (1990s) we were not ready for this sort of policy.

    I do believe we are ready for it now.

    Besides, name me one of those military organizations that have our efficiency and capability.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  8. #278
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Erm... Actually that's not historically accurate.

    Racial integration was first achieved in... Wait for it... Wait for it... The military. Religious integration was first achieved in... The military. Sexual integration was first achieved in... The military.

    In each of these cases it was done long before it was popular in the mainstream.

    Historically, the military is where we start social changes, not the other way around. This is one of the arguments in favor of a compulsary military service.

    Our education system (schools) is another place where we've installed social change historically.

    Both institutions have a precedent for being a productive place and way to enact social change.
    While true, Military Leaders have to feel that the change is not going to cause great discipline problems within our units before enacting said change. Regardless of what has been done in the past.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  9. #279
    Educator Alastor's Avatar
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Caine View Post
    While true, Military Leaders have to feel that the change is not going to cause great discipline problems within our units before enacting said change. Regardless of what has been done in the past.
    If that had been true blacks would not have been allowed to serve in the military along-side whites in the late 40s. The Civil Rights movement didn't start until the mid 60s.

    It's really not up to the generals. It's up to the President.

  10. #280
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    If that had been true blacks would not have been allowed to serve in the military along-side whites in the late 40s. The Civil Rights movement didn't start until the mid 60s.

    It's really not up to the generals. It's up to the President.
    Regardless of what has been done in the past........

    Apparently that statement wasn't being read.

    It might be up to the President and Congress, but they aren't the ones who have to deal with the day to day problems created by social experimentation with the military.

    Any President worth his vote is going to carefully consider the advice of those who actually lead and run the military.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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