View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #241
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Absolutely. It's a mind set that needs education. How can people throw "education" to all the world's problems but scoff at it inside the U.S. military. One would think we are supposed to be perfect. (But chastized when we arrogantly talk as such, right?)
    Education will of course be part of the solution. Any one who has served for any length of time knows the attitude of the military in regards to training(and some of it is so ungodly boring...for every excellent course like LMET, there is a 3 day course on filling out VIDS/MAFs). However, I think the biggest thing that will work to change the attitudes is actual exposure to openly gay soldiers. When you spend that much time around some one, in that close of quarters, you learn very quickly that people are just people.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  2. #242
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Forgetting for a second that there is clearly a spike in the rise of discharges after the creation of DADT, there is also a sharp drop less than a decade later.....

    Might have something do with 9/11 and war. Notice the numbers dropped sharply in 2002?

    With the Army and even the Marine Corps lowering standards for enlistments, do you really think "I'm gay" got people out of the adventure? Do you really think public opinion towards gays had anything to do with internal military affairs, which was looking at deploying to war? I betting that you don't. Don't be a "Blackdog" dude.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-31-10 at 03:02 AM.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Can you expand on the bolded part please? What do you mean by it, and why will it cause problems?
    Oh, this is where I might get into trouble. Forgetting what your personal thinking of this may be, what do you think is the typical idea of what the Alpha Male is? Google it. Usually it is exactly what the "girl" is attracted to. The rugged, fireman, Marine, soldier, dirt bike rider, rodeo star, etc. The weight lifter, the X-gamer, or the leader who commands true respect.

    Nobody thinks that this is what gay men are attracted to as well, especially heterosexual men. The traditional Alpha Male is something that has to change in many mind sets, especially within the military. It would be easy for heterosexual Alpha Males to point at a homosexual Marine and declare that he doesn't fit in.

    "Homosexual Marine." Think about that. Does that fit in with the mind set of the typical Marine or the outsider's idea of a Marine?

    This is exactly what has to be changed and what will produce the most struggle for the leadership.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Might have something do with 9/11 and war. Notice the numbers dropped sharply in 2002?

    With the Army and even the Marine Corps lowering standards for enlistments, do you really think "I'm gay" got people out of the adventure?
    That would support the claim that the changes in discharges are dependent on the general population's ideological lean and are not based on policy itself. After 9/11 the American populace and government saw itself move clearly to the right as laws such as the Patriot Act were passed. So it only makes sense that a rise in the collective sense of patriotism would make the number of discharges due to homosexuality drop. Not to mention that the military itself was getting ready for war. However, before that occurred you had the venomous Contract With America that the Republican Party had run on, so clearly the U.S. witnesses an ideological change which would account for a rise in discharges. It seems to me that the discharge of gays rises or falls as one party loses power and another gains.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 05-31-10 at 03:12 AM.
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, this is where I might get into trouble. Forgetting what your personal thinking of this may be, what do you think is the typical idea of what the Alpha Male is? Google it. Usually it is exactly what the "girl" is attracted to. The rugged, fireman, Marine, soldier, dirt bike rider, rodeo star, etc. The weight lifter, the X-gamer, or the leader who commands true respect.

    Nobody thinks that this is what gay men are attracted to as well, especially heterosexual men. The traditional Alpha Male is something that has to change in many mind sets, especially within the military. It would be easy for heterosexual Alpha Males to point at a homosexual Marine and declare that he doesn't fit in.

    "Homosexual Marine." Think about that. Does that fit in with the mind set of the typical Marine or the outsider's idea of a Marine?

    This is exactly what has to be changed and what will produce the most struggle for the leadership.
    Being that I know a few gay guys, I can tell you more likely than not that the alpha male type guy you describe is what many gay men of that age group appear to be.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #246
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    As a matter of reflection, I think it'd be useful to ignore the distinction between homosexual and heterosexual relationships. Regardless of orientation, a relationship in a professional environment can be a problem. On one hand, attraction and relationships can build trust and can promote courageous behavior. On the other, fights and other negative effects of relationships ending can be detrimental to the collective good. While the lives of others are in your hands, vice versa your life is held in the hands of others in a military unit. Those around you need to be able to count on your action when necessary, regardless of emotional issues.

    As a matter of professionalism, as in the corporate world, relationships of any sort amongst colleagues should probably be discouraged at the very least. (Prevents sexual harassment issues and perceived preferential treatment)

    With respect to disclosure I (personally) don't see a problem, so long as the relationship doesn't effect the duty performance of the individual or those serving along side. But to error on the side of caution, I'd say disclosure is appropriate as long as it results in a separation of duties between the individuals involved. This may reduce interference of emotional issues on service responsibilities

    Homosexual public display of affection as it compares to heterosexual public display of affection, is something that needs to change culturally. I don't believe a legal mandate can effectively remedy this.

    With respect to the shared living/sleeping quarters, I'd like to think ideally we have the decency to behave ourselves in hygiene/sleeping areas and not violate the privacy or personal space of others intentionally. But I know that this level of self control and maturity (in the near future) is beyond most. While we can segregate men and women from one another with relative ease, how do we segregate homosexual individuals? Putting a homosexual members of one gender with members of the heterosexual opposite gender would be equally problematic. Do homosexuals each get their own solitary confined private areas? As with the public display of affection issue, I think it becomes an issue of cultural change not easily mandated by legal code.

    While cultural issues might make DADT repeal uncomfortable initially, I think its a step in the right direction.

    Response and feedback appreciated.
    Respectfully, HTTP

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by HeresToThePoint View Post
    As a matter of reflection, I think it'd be useful to ignore the distinction between homosexual and heterosexual relationships. Regardless of orientation, a relationship in a professional environment can be a problem. On one hand, attraction and relationships can build trust and can promote courageous behavior. On the other, fights and other negative effects of relationships ending can be detrimental to the collective good. While the lives of others are in your hands, vice versa your life is held in the hands of others in a military unit. Those around you need to be able to count on your action when necessary, regardless of emotional issues.

    As a matter of professionalism, as in the corporate world, relationships of any sort amongst colleagues should probably be discouraged at the very least. (Prevents sexual harassment issues and perceived preferential treatment)

    With respect to disclosure I (personally) don't see a problem, so long as the relationship doesn't effect the duty performance of the individual or those serving along side. But to error on the side of caution, I'd say disclosure is appropriate as long as it results in a separation of duties between the individuals involved. This may reduce interference of emotional issues on service responsibilities

    Homosexual public display of affection as it compares to heterosexual public display of affection, is something that needs to change culturally. I don't believe a legal mandate can effectively remedy this.

    With respect to the shared living/sleeping quarters, I'd like to think ideally we have the decency to behave ourselves in hygiene/sleeping areas and not violate the privacy or personal space of others intentionally. But I know that this level of self control and maturity (in the near future) is beyond most. While we can segregate men and women from one another with relative ease, how do we segregate homosexual individuals? Putting a homosexual members of one gender with members of the heterosexual opposite gender would be equally problematic. Do homosexuals each get their own solitary confined private areas? As with the public display of affection issue, I think it becomes an issue of cultural change not easily mandated by legal code.

    While cultural issues might make DADT repeal uncomfortable initially, I think its a step in the right direction.

    Response and feedback appreciated.
    Respectfully, HTTP
    Very well thought out, respectful post. Welcome to the boards, I hope you stay around and continue posting here.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  8. #248
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Very well thought out, respectful post. Welcome to the boards, I hope you stay around and continue posting here.
    Had to make the first post a good one, right? Thanks Redress for starting the conversation!

    Forgot to say, I live in California so my attitudes toward homosexually probably contrast those in other locations around the US. While I don't agree with the status quo, DADT reform should be implemented cautiously since the gender identity of some divisions in the military may be emotionally shocked or scarred. But, thats for the pentagon study to decide.

    Respectfully, HTTP
    Last edited by HeresToThePoint; 05-31-10 at 05:07 AM.

  9. #249
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    MSgt, could you go over a few specific obstacles the military is facing with implementing gays serving openly? I'm curious as to what specific problems the military foresees and what real solutions they are coming up with.
    Personal opinion here, as I am no Msgt...

    But I'll be willing to bet the challenges with behavior discipline won't come from support units as much as combat units. Combat soldiers have a 'tough guy' 'hardcore' mentality that they dont think is possible for a gay guy.

    It will take a few years to smooth out the edges but I dont see what the problem will be after everyone adjusts. When they learn that being gay doesnt make you less male.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
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  10. #250
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    "Homosexual Marine." Think about that. Does that fit in with the mind set of the typical Marine or the outsider's idea of a Marine?

    This is exactly what has to be changed and what will produce the most struggle for the leadership.
    I'm ashamed to admit that I have that stereotype in my head. I wish I were better person, but "homosexual Marine" smacks of pink M16s; diamond-stud ear rings, a splash of Aqua Di Gio and lip gloss worn with the dress blues; Martha Stuart giving the platoon a class on making MREs cute & fun; and Hello Kitty bunk sheets (sorry for that last one Jallman ).

    Intellectually I know the stereo type does not reflect the real world, I know that the parade marchers don't enlist, nor would the military tolerate any of the items I mentioned. But you're right, there is a stereotype, a perception which needs to change.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-31-10 at 11:58 AM.

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