View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #231
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    MSgt, could you go over a few specific obstacles the military is facing with implementing gays serving openly? I'm curious as to what specific problems the military foresees and what real solutions they are coming up with.
    Well, according to the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Marines have these general concerns....

    1) Barracks situation: Marines live two to three to a room. Marines have generally produced reservations of undressing in front of gay men. In light of the general concern, he has stated that he will not force Marines to live under conditions that he is "very" opposed to. The general civilian public will reply with "suck it up" or "get out." In the end, the civilian public can't afford for thousands to simply "get out." Therefore, concerns must be met with solutions other than the troop supporting retort of "**** you" by the average American who supports his mission to kill for him, but not his support on personal opinion or belief.

    2) Showering situations: Marines and Naval personell shower in groups consistenly in deployed situations. Traditionally this has been separated between dicks and vaginas. However, things have changed. Sexual orientation is a concern of the average Marine. All it takes is one asshole to point out a "fag" to wreck unit cohesion.

    Which brings me to a third general concern amongst Marines...

    3) Unit cohesion: This is very important to Marines, especially. We are what we are because of unit cohesion and brotherhood. Sexual wierdness and tension has no place in a combat unit, which is a a factor in regards to where women don't belong. It breeds unnecesary competition in a "Fire Team." Furthermore, new Marines who are identified as "gays in the shower" or "boyfriends in the room" divide what should be a single muscle.

    What I get is how the jack-ass crowd on one side insists that the Hollywood stereotype of what a gay is is what the military is about to get. It's thrown in their face constantly. Anybody seen an episode of "Will and Grace" lately? But what I don't get is how the gay rights parade insists on equality, but then denounce that gays are sexual beings like the rest of us. There will be problems. And this is what the Pentagon Study is figuring out.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-31-10 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    MSgt,

    That was informative. Thank you.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Well, according to the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Marines have these general concerns....

    1) Barracks situation: Marines live two to three to a room. Marines have generally produced reservations of undressing in front of gay men. In light of the general concern, he has stated that he will not force Marines to live under conditions that he is "very" opposed to. The general civilian public will reply with "suck it up" or "get out." In the end, the civilian public can't afford for thousands to simply "get out." Therefore, concerns must be met with solutions other than the troop supporiting retort of "**** you" by the average American who supports his mission to kill for him, but not his support on personal opinion or belief.

    2) Showering situations: Marines and Naval personell shower in groups consistenly in deployed situations. Traditionally this has been separated between dicks and vaginas. However, things have changed. Sexual orientation is a concern of the average Marine. All it takes is one asshole to point out a "fag" to wreck unit cohesion.

    Which brings me to a third general concern amongst Marines...

    3) Unit cohesion: This is very important to Marines, especially. We are what we are because of unit cohesion and brotherhood. Sexual wierdness and tension has no place in a combat unit, which is a a factor in regards to where women don't belong. It breeds unnecesary competition in a "Fire Team." Furthermore, new Marines who are identified as "gays in the shower" or "boyfriends in the room" divide what should be a single muscle.

    What I get is how the jack-ass crowd on one side insists that the Hollywood stereotype of what a gay is is what the military is about to get. It's thrown in their face constantly. Anybody seen an episode of "Will and Grace" lately? But what I don't get is how the gay rights parade insists on equality, but then denounce that gays are sexual beings like the rest of us. There will be problems. And this is what the Pentagon Study is figuring out.
    Regarding #1&3, would barring gays from serving openly in combat MOS's, while allowing gays to serve openly in non-combat MOS's, be a possable solution?

  4. #234
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    DADT was simply one more act in the years of bigoted policy the military had towards gays and bisexuals. Do not forget that before Clinton, Reagan had made it a top priority in his fight against homosexuality to declare gays as 'incompatible with the military'. Gays and bisexuals were being discharged from the military long before Clinton signed it as 'official' policy. It's not even fair to blame it on Reagan because before him the military had been discharging people under different Presidents. 'Blue discharges' they were called. What Clinton should be blamed for is going back on his word of allowing people to serve regardless of their orientation. DADT was not a compromise. It was a slap in the face.
    Oh, come now. The numbers don't lie in this respect. DADT wasn't a military design. It was a Clinton's repercussion for forcing an issue. But you are right about some things - DADT was a slap in the face for not only gays but for the military. According to Blackdog's link (just don't throw it in his face)....DADT was a mistake...

    Homosexual Conduct Administrative Separation Discharge Statistics
    Total Number of Homosexual Discharges and Percentage of Total Active Force

    1980 1,754 0.086
    1981 1,817 0.088
    1982 1,998 0.095
    1983 1,815 0.085
    1984 1,822 0.085
    1985 1,660 0.077
    1986 1,643 0.076
    1987 1,380 0.063
    1988 1,101 0.051
    1989 996 0.047
    1990 941 0.046
    1991 949 0.048
    1992 730 0.040
    1993 682 0.040
    1994 617 0.038
    1995 757 0.050
    1996 858 0.058
    1997 997 0.069
    1998 1,145 0.081
    1999 1,034 0.075
    2000 1,212 0.088
    2001 1,227 0.089
    2002 885 0.063
    2003 770 0.054
    2004 653 0.046
    2005 726 0.052
    2006 612 0.044
    2007 635 0.046
    2008 634 0.045
    2009 428 0.030
    The numbers deliver something so very simple. Gays being discharged was lessening until DADT. After DADT, gays (and non-gays) merely had to announce their sexual orientation to get out of contract. The military was forced to act legally. Blackdog's link states that most were discharged because they came forward and declared their sexual status. After 9/11, it was obvioulsy harder for people to declare "homosexuality" as an excuse to legally breach contract, because the military wasn't hearing it. War was on. Of course, I've been in for 18 years and didn't need an Internet site to give me this wisdom, but there it is.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-31-10 at 02:23 AM.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Regarding #1&3, would barring gays from serving openly in combat MOS's, while allowing gays to serve openly in non-combat MOS's, be a possable solution?
    In the end, congress will be making the rules, and I doubt very much that this solution would happen. I see it being an all or nothing situation from congress. Either gays can serve openly throughout, or DADT lives on. Admittedly, this is prediction, so take it for what it is worth.

    The list that MSgt made for the most part is a perception problem. People fear what they have not been through. I suspect that it would be a very short lived problem, since once people get used to the idea that gays are not going to stare at them or make trouble for them, they should get over the discomfort fairly quickly. I forget the exact number, but I saw a poll that said that over half the military was serving with some one they either knew, or thought was gay. If that number is accurate, it should give you an idea that for the most part, those problems work themselves out quickly. There will be issues, both with gays who decide to push the limits after the rules change(and who their commands will have to act against), and those who will make trouble for gays(which again, commands will have to act against). With good leadership, and I think the military does have this(see MSgt for example), consistent and strong application of the rules should quickly and without too much trouble maintain a status quo for readiness and unit cohesion.

    One point that MSgt makes that is an excellent point is that the stereotypical limp-wristed gay is not going to be drawn to the military(well, Air Force maybe). Again, it's the problem of perception...people who have not known many gays are going to have false impressions. I think that as the military sees that gay soldiers really are just like them, things are going to sort themselves out quicker rather than slower. Fortunately, we have good people, like MSgt, who can see both sides and work to make what orders come down happen, and happen well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #236
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Regarding #1&3, would barring gays from serving openly in combat MOS's, while allowing gays to serve openly in non-combat MOS's, be a possable solution?
    Oh, no...no...no.

    Homosexual men can certainly carry heterosexual men, who cannot walk, out of combat danger. What needs to happen is a mind set change of acceptance with the understanding of sexual perspective respect. But this is not a flip of the switch as others have whimsically pretended. The "Alpha Male" identity of a U.S. Marine is not unheard of. This mind set must change and it wil be made easier to alter via education. As I've stated before, the Hollywood stereotype has a certian type of gay implanted in many minds as the essential gay. But it is not the flmaboyent gay that enlists. It's simply not his life style.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, come now. The numbers don't lie in this respect. DADT wasn't a military design. It was a Clinton's repercussion for forcing an issue. But you are right about some things - DADT was a slap in the face for not only gays but for the military. According to Blackdog's link (just don't throw it in his face)....DADT was a mistake...

    The numbers deliver something so very simple. Gays being discharged was lessening until DADT. After DADT, gays (and non-gays) merely had to announce their sexual orientation to get out of contract. The military was forced to act legally. Blackdog's link states that most were discharged because they came forward and declared their sexual status. After 9/11, it was obvioulsy harder for people to declare "homosexuality" as an excuse to legally breach contract, because the military wasn't hearing it. War was on. Of course, I've been in for 18 years and didn't need an Internet site to give me this wisdom, but there it is.
    Forgetting for a second that there is clearly a spike in the rise of discharges after the creation of DADT, there is also a sharp drop less than a decade later. If anything DADT as well as the rise in discharges are more of a manifestation of the ideological change the American population had during the 90s. Notice that there is another drop as Democrats regain control of congress and it goes even further down a left wing president is elected. If anything, the rise and drop in discharges are more likely a reflection of how American voters are leaning ideologically and not the policy enacted by the military.
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, no...no...no.

    Homosexual men can certainly carry heterosexual men, who cannot walk, out of combat danger. What needs to happen is a mind set change of acceptance with the understanding of sexual perspective respect. But this is not a flip of the switch as others have whimsically pretended. The "Alpha Male" identity of a U.S. Marine is not unheard of. This mind set must change and it wil be made easier to alter via education. As I've stated before, the Hollywood stereotype has a certian type of gay implanted in many minds as the essential gay. But it is not the flmaboyent gay that enlists. It's simply not his life style.
    Can you expand on the bolded part please? What do you mean by it, and why will it cause problems?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The list that MSgt made for the most part is a perception problem.
    Absolutely. It's a mind set that needs education. How can people throw "education" to all the world's problems but scoff at it inside the U.S. military. One would think we are supposed to be perfect. (But chastized when we arrogantly talk as such, right?)

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Forgetting for a second that there is clearly a spike in the rise of discharges after the creation of DADT, there is also a sharp drop less than a decade later. If anything DADT as well as the rise in discharges are more of a manifestation of the ideological change the American population had during the 90s. Notice that there is another drop as Democrats regain control of congress and it goes even further down a left wing president is elected. If anything, the rise and drop in discharges are more likely a reflection of how American voters are leaning ideologically and not the policy enacted by the military.
    In other words as the report stated...

    Statistically speaking the numbers are irrelevant.
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