View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

Voters
217. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #171
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The military does not make policy decisions, and all the decisions it does make are in response to civilian directives. The decisions the military makes are only how something is accomplished.
    Of course the military makes policy decisions. The military has numerous policies, many of which came about with no political or civilian input. The military is certainly an instrument of the populace, but it can only be effective when its given a relative amount of autonomy. I don't think it is the prerogative of politicians and laymen to dictate to the military how it should operate, only to what end.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Your explanation is far from compelling. Anyone can assert that their opponent is wrong, but it adds nothing to the discussion. Let us refrain from it.
    This is a debate board. Explaining why we think some one elses arguments are wrong is an integral part of debate.

    This thread hardly encapsulates the entirety or complexity of this argument. As for my part, I've heard compelling and impassioned arguments from former officers that it could undermine or jeopardize our readiness. I've also heard compelling and impassioned arguments that it won't undermined or jeopardize our readiness. Since I've never served, I'll withhold judgement and defer to the military in matters of which I have no understanding.
    While the opinions of the people who have served is important to note(since I have served, I would hope so anyway), it is not data, it is anecdote. By data, I mean the history of integrating different people in the military, the experiences of other militaries which allow gays to serve openly, and the data on the changing attitudes in this country on gays and gays in the military.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by alms View Post
    Of course the military makes policy decisions. The military has numerous policies, many of which came about with no political or civilian input. The military is certainly an instrument of the populace, but it can only be effective when its given a relative amount of autonomy. I don't think it is the prerogative of politicians and laymen to dictate to the military how it should operate, only to what end.
    Name one policy decision the military made not in response to a government directive.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  4. #174
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    This is a debate board. Explaining why we think some one elses arguments are wrong is an integral part of debate.
    You're free to explain your position but asserting that I am wrong adds nothing to the discussion. Anyone can say "you're wrong" but it's hardly worth saying.

    While the opinions of the people who have served is important to note(since I have served, I would hope so anyway), it is not data, it is anecdote. By data, I mean the history of integrating different people in the military, the experiences of other militaries which allow gays to serve openly, and the data on the changing attitudes in this country on gays and gays in the military.
    I thank you for your service, and your opinion in this regard means more to me than the politicians and laymen. Still, I think the military as a whole ought to decide for itself. I hesitate to impose the views of politicians and laymen on the people who defend this nation with their very lives.

    Apart from your assertion that I am wrong, this has been a very pleasant discussion. I hope we can have more of these discussions in the future but I must bid you adieu for now.

    Thank you for your service and God bless you. God bless the troops and God bless this nation. May we all live in peace!

  5. #175
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    if he is a competent soldier what should I care if he wants to bang me in the ass. although looking at my ass, I doubt that would be an issue. our country needs the best of the best period end of story

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    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

  6. #176
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The decisions the military makes are only how something is accomplished.
    Not really. Not since WWII and 2006 in Iraq.

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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    I think it's typical government red tape bull****. Thats OK though, it's over and it's going to happen. And people who are against it are going to have to suck it up, end of story.
    Oh, fortunately their are others who are actually thinking. It's hardly the end of the story. It will take time to assimilate the new mind set. In the mean time, what the mouth pieces on both sides (yours and theirs) have to come to realize is that the kind of gays that are willing to wear a uniform in the military, especially the Marine Corps and Army, are not the kinds to go on parade or wear pink nail polish. The anti-gay crowd have this Hollywood stereotype in their heads and the pro-gay crowd are just preaching without care.

    The military has already accepted that it is inevitable. Now the quetions are:

    1) How to impliment
    2) What to expect
    3) And how to react

    The military has gone through this social restructure before. The only difference between past topics and the gay topic is that the civilian community has accepted it before us.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-29-10 at 02:20 AM.

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  8. #178
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, fortunately their are others who are actually thinking.
    Very relevent to the subject at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's hardly the end of the story. It will take time to assimilate the new mind set.
    70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

    I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    In the mean time, what the mouth pieces on both sides (yours and theirs) have to come to realize is that the kind of gays that are willing to wear a uniform in the military, especially the Marine Corps and Army, are not the kinds to go on parade or wear pink nail polish. The anti-gay crowd have this Hollywood stereotype in their heads and the pro-gay crowd are just preaching without care.
    Before 9/11 on average 600 military persons were discharged under DADT. That flies in the face of your comment and stereo typing of gays.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The military has already accepted that it is inevitable. Now the quetions are:

    1) How to impliment
    2) What to expect
    3) And how to react
    There is nothing to implement. Gays are already serving. We can expect nothing really to change as gays are already serving, many of them openly.

    People may react badly. And they will be delt with under the UCMJ like everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The military has gone through this social restructure before. The only difference between past topics and the gay topic is that the civilian community has accepted it before us.
    Don't give me that "us" crap. I am part of that "us" like many other veterans and service members serving now.

    Fact: It is hapening sooner rather than later. The majority of the country supports it and so do most of the military.

    The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet.

    Welcome to their world.
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  9. #179
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Very relevent to the subject at hand.



    70% on average and even 60% among conservatives say gays should be able to openly serve. This includes many veterans and active service personal.

    I don't think a few homophobes who cannot act professionally will be much of a problem.



    Before 9/11 on average 600 military persons were discharged under DADT. That flies in the face of your comment and stereo typing of gays.



    There is nothing to implement. Gays are already serving. We can expect nothing really to change as gays are already serving, many of them openly.

    People may react badly. And they will be delt with under the UCMJ like everyone else.



    Don't give me that "us" crap. I am part of that "us" like many other veterans and service members serving now.

    Fact: It is hapening sooner rather than later. The majority of the country supports it and so do most of the military.

    The homophobia and bigotry like everything else will have to now be kept in the closet.

    Welcome to their world.
    While I do not support the DADT, I strongly disagree with you that if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophob and a bigot.
    I think that's a very foolish and crude thinking you present there.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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  10. #180
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    While I do not support the DADT, I strongly disagree with you that if someone supports it it automatically makes him a homophob and a bigot.
    I think that's a very foolish and crude thinking you present there.
    I think he meant those who would make trouble with gays after a DADT repeal where homophobes.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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