View Poll Results: Should the law be changed so that gays can serve openly in the military.

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  • Yes, do it now

    79 36.41%
  • Yes, but after the Pentagon completes it study on the issue

    11 5.07%
  • No, do not change the law

    14 6.45%
  • No, DADT should be repealed and gays not allowed to serve at all

    104 47.93%
  • Other, please explain

    9 4.15%
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Thread: Gays in the Military

  1. #121
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    It is a different topic. Boys grow up showing with boys and girls grow up showering with girls. Never the twain shall meet. I would have no hesitation in showering with a room full of lesbians. They're all girls, just like me.

    Asking a woman to shower with a man is not the same thing.
    Why are showers segregated by gender, what is the reason or purpose of this?
    Last edited by jamesrage; 05-28-10 at 09:24 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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  2. #122
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is one of the concerns. I don't know why people argue and pretend that it is different. The only way this isn't true is if gays aren't sexual beings. Well, if they are supposed to be like everybody else, then.... they.... are.... like.... everybody.... else.
    MSgt and James do have a point. If you are in a communal shower/locker setting with nude individuals of the type you find sexually attractive, then does it matter if it is a gay man among straight men, or a straight man among women? I find it a little dubious to claim that it is "entirely different".

    If I were in a communal shower with a bunch of hot chicks... I would NOT rape anybody because I am not that kind of person, but it is possible someone might be "offended" because I'm not 100% sure I could prevent a certain "reflexive" response to being amidst acres of desireable female nudity.

    Where such "intimate" circumstances were necessary in a professional setting, I would attempt to remain "professional" about it of course. I might even be successful.... after all I'm not a young man anymore. But in the military we're talking about mostly 20-somethings and quite a few 18 and 19yo's, for whom self-restraint is more difficult. There's a reason why the military tries to avoid co-ed nudity as much as possible... and it is possible there are reasons why "homo-co-ed" nudity might cause problems as well.

    IF there IS some reason why a homo male among straight males in a shower/locker situation really IS totally different from men and woman in the same situation (ie a person among those he finds sexually appealing), then I am all ears to hear it and await suitable enlightenment.

    (Hint: sweeping it under the rug by saying "It's totally different! It just is! Everyone knows that!" does not count as an acceptible explanation.)

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  3. #123
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    A co-ed shower?
    You're comparing a bar of soap to a wheat thin. Those are two entirely different topics.
    No, actually, the compairson is spot on.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

  4. #124
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why are showers segregated by gender, what is the purpose of this?
    I would guess it starts with mom, dad, the school board......
    What are you asking?


    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  5. #125
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    MSgt and James do have a point. If you are in a communal shower/locker setting with nude individuals of the type you find sexually attractive, then does it matter if it is a gay man among straight men, or a straight man among women? I find it a little dubious to claim that it is "entirely different".
    Come on, Goshin. I think you might be thinking over the idea but I don't believe you're sold on it.
    How does a woman/woman or man/man showering together in any way equate to a woman and a man showering together?

    I really don't want to derail Redress' thread. It's a good one. I'll join you in another thread on this topic if you want to start one.
    Whaddya say?



    I would chat with her when I'm feeling particularly snarky, but I wouldn't ever call her on the phone.

  6. #126
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    It is a different topic. Boys grow up showing with boys and girls grow up showering with girls. Never the twain shall meet. I would have no hesitation in showering with a room full of lesbians. They're all girls, just like me.

    Asking a woman to shower with a man is not the same thing.
    Well, you don't get to equate little boys and girls to grown men and women as an argument. There is a differnce between boys and men. Boys are boys. Men are aware of their sexual desires. Openly gay means openly gay. We don't get to argue that they should be respected for their sexual preference and then claim that we should pretend that it makes no difference.

    If their sexual desires are supposed to be equal and respected to the sexual desires of heterosexuals, then they should be treated as sexual beings like the rest. It is the same thing as asking men and women to shower together. How many gay men would love to be in a room full of naked men? Or are they robotic and without human nature?

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  7. #127
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why are showers segregated by gender, what is the reason or purpose of this?
    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    It is a different topic. Boys grow up showing with boys and girls grow up showering with girls. Never the twain shall meet. I would have no hesitation in showering with a room full of lesbians. They're all girls, just like me.

    Asking a woman to shower with a man is not the same thing.

    Hm. I would be somewhat uncomfortable showering with a room full of male homosexuals. There, I admitted it. Wow, I feel so free. "Free to be me..."

    James later asks why showers are gender-segregated in school. Well, we know the answer don't we? Because we're worried that something MIGHT happen between them, especially between 13-21 yo.

    We continue to segregate showers and lockers at adult exercise facilities into full adulthood. Why?

    We know why, of course.

    Is there NO parallel at all to the homosexual question? Can someone explain why not?

    Paging Jallman.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-28-10 at 09:32 PM.

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  8. #128
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    I would guess it starts with mom, dad, the school board......
    And why do you think it starts with mom,dad and the school board? Why do you think that they do not want males and females showering together?


    What are you asking?
    Because you seem to be deliberately ignoring the reasons why school showers and even military showers are segregated by gender.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  9. #129
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why are showers segregated by gender, what is the reason or purpose of this?
    Quote Originally Posted by missypea View Post
    Come on, Goshin. I think you might be thinking over the idea but I don't believe you're sold on it.
    How does a woman/woman or man/man showering together in any way equate to a woman and a man showering together?

    I really don't want to derail Redress' thread. It's a good one. I'll join you in another thread on this topic if you want to start one.
    Whaddya say?

    If you want to start a new thread, I will join you there.

    I don't claim to have "bought" into anything, or not. I'm asking the question: IS there no comparison between the two issues? Both involve someone being among nude individuals to whom he/she might be attracted, and the question of whether such a scenario could lead to problems.

    It seems that with male/female scenarios we DO automatically assume their could be issues. We DO seem to automatically assume that some women would be uncomfortable with it and further that it is OKAY and REASONABLE for women to have a problem with communally showering/changing among men.

    Yet when we turn that around and say "some men might be uncomfortable showering/changing with homosexual men", all the sudden they are homophobes who need to grow up and get over it, because THEY are the problem.

    Double standard?

    I'm just asking questions...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #130
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    Re: Gays in the Military

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    Wouldn't distrust come with having to hide it, and lie about it?
    What is to distrust when the problem is not known? If you don't know about something, you can't be afraid/paranoid/homophobic/etc.

    I would rather have people be able to be out in the open, than have to hide it, and have rumors about people spreading.
    Rumors don't spread. Soldiers live their lives and move on. Nobody gives a **** until the problem is KNOWN.

    The fact is that true acceptance of others, and having shared experience's bring unity.
    Until you can understand what goes on in the mind of a combat killer, I don't think 90% of the combat soldiers I have worked with give a **** what type of experience homosexuals can "share" with them.
    Also, why would someone being gay bring distrust about them? This fallacy that all gay people can't wait to get in the shower with heterosexuals so they can gawk at them is nonsense. Being truthful is the best policy, and allowing gays to openly serve, will not only help our military, but our society as a whole.
    Its not nonsense to those who you want to impose your sense of "fair" and "politically correct" nonsense on. Im not so sure how this difference will help society as a whole either.
    "I condemn the ideology of White Supremacy and Nazism. They are thugs, criminals, and repugnant, and are against what I believe to be "The American Way" "
    Thus my obligatory condemnation of White supremacy will now be in every post, lest I be accused of supporting it because I didn't mention it specifically every time I post.

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