View Poll Results: Is this a good definition?

Voters
10. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    5 50.00%
  • No

    5 50.00%
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 29

Thread: A Definition of Fascism

  1. #1
    Professor

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    North Dakota
    Last Seen
    09-02-17 @ 08:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    2,357

    A Definition of Fascism

    In the thread about whether fascism can work or not I think people are confusing fascism with a form of government such as a dictatorship, or simply authoritarianism. I think it is much more than that.

    So the question is, is this a good definition of fascism?

    A form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy, but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.
    Reference:
    -Robert O. Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism, page 218. Knopf, 2004

  2. #2
    Traditionalist
    phattonez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA
    Last Seen
    12-05-17 @ 03:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    20,072

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    There's that, but there's also this.

    An inherent aspect of fascist economies was economic dirigisme[12], meaning an economy where the government exerts strong directive influence, and effectively controls production and allocation of resources. In general, apart from the nationalizations of some industries, fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative, but these were contingent upon service to the state.[13]

    Fascism operated from a Social Darwinist view of human relations. Their aim was to promote superior individuals and weed out the weak.[14] In terms of economic practice, this meant promoting the interests of successful businessmen while destroying trade unions and other organizations of the working class.[15] Historian Gaetano Salvemini argued in 1936 that fascism makes taxpayers responsible to private enterprise, because "the State pays for the blunders of private enterprise... Profit is private and individual. Loss is public and social."[16] Fascist governments encouraged the pursuit of private profit and offered many benefits to large businesses, but they demanded in return that all economic activity should serve the national interest.[17]
    Economics of fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #3
    John Schnatter 2012 Phantom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Seen
    03-20-12 @ 12:48 AM
    Lean
    Progressive
    Posts
    638

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Here's a good definition of fascism:

    Torture, war, oppression, racism, and the extermination of: Jews, Gypsies, Russians, gays, Jehovah's Witnesses, Poles, Africans, and prisoners of war.
    Vote John Schnatter (Papa John) 2012!

  4. #4
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:34 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Waitin' for Korimyr.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  5. #5
    Count Smackula
    rathi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    10-31-15 @ 10:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,890

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Fascist governments to date have been a combination of corporatism, nationalism and totalitarianism. They always have cult of personality leaders arise during a time of national weakness and heavily scapegoat certain groups as national policy.

  6. #6
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Waitin' for Korimyr.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benito Mussolini
    The Fascist State , as a higher and more powerful expression of personality, is a force, but a spiritual one. It sums up all the manifestations of the moral and intellectual life of man. Its functions cannot therefore be limited to those of enforcing order and keeping the peace, as the liberal doctrine had it. It is no mere mechanical device for defining the sphere within which the individual may duly exercise his supposed rights. The Fascist State is an inwardly accepted standard and rule of conduct, a discipline of the whole person; it permeates the will no less than the intellect. It stands for a principle which becomes the central motive of man as a member of civilized society, sinking deep down into his personality; it dwells in the heart of the man of action and of the thinker, of the artist and of the man of science: soul of the soul.

    Fascism, in short, is not only a law-giver and a founder of institutions, but an educator and a promoter of spiritual life. It aims at refashioning not only the forms of life but their content - man, his character, and his faith. To achieve this propose it enforces discipline and uses authority, entering into the soul and ruling with undisputed sway.
    When people-- usually liberals of some stripe-- compare Fascism to Socialism and Communism, they are attempting to study Fascism through the same strictly materialistic lens through which Marx first envisioned Communism and through which Libertarians envision the perfect liberal State. Whether this is an accurate way of looking at the universe or not-- I believe not-- it is only capable of skimming the surface of Fascism, missing the depths. Fascism is concerned first and foremost with the human spirit, and the spiritual forces that influence it; it is concerned with giving man the sense of moral order and social belonging that he needs in order to lead a life of spiritual significance.

    My definition of Fascism is the ideal of the State as a whole organism, in which the citizens are parts of the healthy, functional whole. Each citizen has a role to play in the health and strength of the State, and the State has its role to play in the health and strength of its citizens-- not just their pocketbooks, but their spirits as well.

  7. #7
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:34 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    When people-- usually liberals of some stripe-- compare Fascism to Socialism and Communism, they are attempting to study Fascism through the same strictly materialistic lens through which Marx first envisioned Communism and through which Libertarians envision the perfect liberal State. Whether this is an accurate way of looking at the universe or not-- I believe not-- it is only capable of skimming the surface of Fascism, missing the depths. Fascism is concerned first and foremost with the human spirit, and the spiritual forces that influence it; it is concerned with giving man the sense of moral order and social belonging that he needs in order to lead a life of spiritual significance.

    My definition of Fascism is the ideal of the State as a whole organism, in which the citizens are parts of the healthy, functional whole. Each citizen has a role to play in the health and strength of the State, and the State has its role to play in the health and strength of its citizens-- not just their pocketbooks, but their spirits as well.

    I knew this would be intresting.

    So let's see if I understand correctly. In Fascism, morality = law and law = morality? The function of the State is to be moral and spiritually positive, so for the citizen to support the State is an act of morality and spirituality as well as duty?

    Would a fascist state necessarily have a state religion, or could some version of religious tolerance exist? It would seem that there would have to be a overarching structure of morality and spirituality, that was professed as being right and proper and suitable for all citizens. I suppose fascism would not have to be religious in the traditional sense, necessarily... it could be deist or somewhat generic, perhaps... but allowing a multiplicity (or multicultural-ism) of moral and spiritual beliefs to exist and compete in the public square would seem contrary to the principles espoused.

    Actually I would think multi-culturalism would be anathema to fascism.

    Probably the most you could have in that direction would be tolerance of beliefs that were not in line with the State's official religion/morality, but that those who practiced "nonstandard" religion/culture would end up as 2nd class citizens who could not hope to advance very far within the State's structure of control.

    Thoughts?

    How would you feel about a Fascist State that chose to base its spiritual/moral foundations on some belief system that was not your own? That relegated your own beliefs to the status of "nonstandard/tolerated" and you to 2nd-class citizen status for holding same?

    Just some thoughts knocking around my noggin...

    G.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #8
    Baby Eating Monster
    Korimyr the Rat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Laramie, WY
    Last Seen
    11-23-17 @ 02:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    18,709
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    So let's see if I understand correctly. In Fascism, morality = law and law = morality? The function of the State is to be moral and spiritually positive, so for the citizen to support the State is an act of morality and spirituality as well as duty?
    Yes, that's the ideal. If I were to borrow from an older tradition, I would say that the Confucian ideal of the Mandate of Heaven applies to Fascist States and their leaders. The leader has a heavy burden of responsibility for the whole State, and as long as he is upholding that responsibility-- as long as his actions promote the well-being of the State and its people-- his authority is sacred.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Would a fascist state necessarily have a state religion, or could some version of religious tolerance exist? It would seem that there would have to be a overarching structure of morality and spirituality, that was professed as being right and proper and suitable for all citizens. I suppose fascism would not have to be religious in the traditional sense, necessarily... it could be deist or somewhat generic, perhaps... but allowing a multiplicity (or multicultural-ism) of moral and spiritual beliefs to exist and compete in the public square would seem contrary to the principles espoused.
    The two are not mutually exclusive. Parts of Europe still maintain State Churches and yet allow for a degree of religious and cultural tolerance that I would call excessive. I think that it is better for a Fascist State to have a State religion, to better govern the spiritual affairs of the people, but it is not strictly necessary. As long as the unofficial religions do not contradict the State, religious minorities can be easily tolerated within the State; a Fascist State could likewise have multiple official religions, as long as they were morally compatible with the State's laws and promoted active membership in the State. You are right that those who practiced minority religions would by necessity have trouble advancing under the State's authority, but I would say this is little different than the state of affairs in a democracy-- witness how many threads we see here concerning the religion or lack thereof in politicians. The degree to which religious minorities would be treated as second-class citizens depends on the balance between practicality and ideological purity within the State, and the degree to which the members of the minority religion present themselves as loyal and enthusiastic citizens of the State.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    How would you feel about a Fascist State that chose to base its spiritual/moral foundations on some belief system that was not your own? That relegated your own beliefs to the status of "nonstandard/tolerated" and you to 2nd-class citizen status for holding same?
    That would have to depend on the degree of incompatibility. Obviously, I would be dismayed and frustrated by any major deviance from my moral values-- because like any sane person, I believe that my values are right-- but I am already accustomed to living under a State whose moral values differ significantly from my own. I have no hope of a political career in this country, and I've been subject to unwarranted abuse on the basis of both my religious and my political beliefs. As long as I was not actively persecuted for my beliefs, I could survive as a second-class citizen, and might even be better off despite my minority status if the government were sufficiently more effective. Of course, the Fascist State cannot tolerate anything outside the State or anything against the State; if I were labeled an enemy of the State, or if I could not accept the State's morality, I would have no choice but fight or flight. Given my temperament, I would fight and I would lose and I would be damned lucky if I died on my feet.

    Obviously, I recognize that as unlikely as a true Fascist government is to form in the United States it is even unlikelier that such a government would be formed according to my beliefs. I recognize the inherent contradiction in my beliefs and accept it; despite the fact that the State adopting a large portion of my political ideals could very well be bad for me, it's what would be best for the country. Of course, the closer such a State was to my beliefs, the better I think it would be for both myself and the people, but the less likely it would be to form and the more initial resistance to its ideals there would be before order could be imposed.

  9. #9
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:34 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,185

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Yes, that's the ideal. If I were to borrow from an older tradition, I would say that the Confucian ideal of the Mandate of Heaven applies to Fascist States and their leaders. The leader has a heavy burden of responsibility for the whole State, and as long as he is upholding that responsibility-- as long as his actions promote the well-being of the State and its people-- his authority is sacred.



    The two are not mutually exclusive. Parts of Europe still maintain State Churches and yet allow for a degree of religious and cultural tolerance that I would call excessive. I think that it is better for a Fascist State to have a State religion, to better govern the spiritual affairs of the people, but it is not strictly necessary. As long as the unofficial religions do not contradict the State, religious minorities can be easily tolerated within the State; a Fascist State could likewise have multiple official religions, as long as they were morally compatible with the State's laws and promoted active membership in the State. You are right that those who practiced minority religions would by necessity have trouble advancing under the State's authority, but I would say this is little different than the state of affairs in a democracy-- witness how many threads we see here concerning the religion or lack thereof in politicians. The degree to which religious minorities would be treated as second-class citizens depends on the balance between practicality and ideological purity within the State, and the degree to which the members of the minority religion present themselves as loyal and enthusiastic citizens of the State.



    That would have to depend on the degree of incompatibility. Obviously, I would be dismayed and frustrated by any major deviance from my moral values-- because like any sane person, I believe that my values are right-- but I am already accustomed to living under a State whose moral values differ significantly from my own. I have no hope of a political career in this country, and I've been subject to unwarranted abuse on the basis of both my religious and my political beliefs. As long as I was not actively persecuted for my beliefs, I could survive as a second-class citizen, and might even be better off despite my minority status if the government were sufficiently more effective. Of course, the Fascist State cannot tolerate anything outside the State or anything against the State; if I were labeled an enemy of the State, or if I could not accept the State's morality, I would have no choice but fight or flight. Given my temperament, I would fight and I would lose and I would be damned lucky if I died on my feet.

    Obviously, I recognize that as unlikely as a true Fascist government is to form in the United States it is even unlikelier that such a government would be formed according to my beliefs. I recognize the inherent contradiction in my beliefs and accept it; despite the fact that the State adopting a large portion of my political ideals could very well be bad for me, it's what would be best for the country. Of course, the closer such a State was to my beliefs, the better I think it would be for both myself and the people, but the less likely it would be to form and the more initial resistance to its ideals there would be before order could be imposed.

    As has always been the case, I am most impressed by the clear consistency of your beliefs, even when I don't agree with them.

    Thank you for a well-thought and well-crafted reply.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #10
    Student Pal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Last Seen
    06-28-10 @ 11:16 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    211

    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    When people-- usually liberals of some stripe-- compare Fascism to Socialism and Communism, they are attempting to study Fascism through the same strictly materialistic lens through which Marx first envisioned Communism and through which Libertarians envision the perfect liberal State.
    Wait... since when do Liberals compare Facism to Socialism and Communism? Socialism and Communism are far left wing systems, why would it benefit a Liberal to compare them to a system that is generally regarded as "evil" in contemporary culture? I know you are of the firm belief that it is not evil Korimyr, but I'm not understanding what these liberal's motives would be in making such a comparison considering what the general view of Facism is. Seems to me that it's usually Conservatives who compare Socialism to Facism in order to cast Socialism in a bad light.
    Last edited by Pal; 05-29-10 at 12:56 AM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •