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Thread: A Definition of Fascism

  1. #21
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom View Post
    Here's a good definition of fascism:
    Actually, no.

    That is a good definition of Nazi Germany, not fascism.
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  2. #22
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Pal View Post
    Wait... since when do Liberals compare Facism to Socialism and Communism? Socialism and Communism are far left wing systems, why would it benefit a Liberal to compare them to a system that is generally regarded as "evil" in contemporary culture? I know you are of the firm belief that it is not evil Korimyr, but I'm not understanding what these liberal's motives would be in making such a comparison considering what the general view of Facism is. Seems to me that it's usually Conservatives who compare Socialism to Facism in order to cast Socialism in a bad light.
    I was just in an argument with an individual of the Left (not to be confused with a global leftist) who was trying to convince people that Stalin's and Mao's dictator status made them fascist, and since fascism is traditionally of a right wing extreme, that it meant that their brand of communism was of the right.

    The motive of the Left is to cast the most violent century in history off of their shoulders and on to the Right. You have it correct. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and other less than remarkable dictators were of the leftist school of social organization. Their communist and socialist systems are the reason there are hundreds of millions of corpses between the German border and Cambodia.

    Both schools of thought (Hitler=right, Stalin=left) come down to the same mistake. History's greatest upheavals of peace and destruction of humanity have always gone back to theories of how to control and organize people. How to "perfect" humanity. It's this impractical scheming of the dreamers that cause so much death. They always seem to deny the existence of the human soul. It's the machine of "sameness" that refuses to acknowledge that one can't perfect humanity because humans aren't perfect. Other men (Phillip II, Thomas Muntzer, Stalin, Mao, etc.) later prove the dreamers wrong. If the twentieth century proved anything, it proved that though we can't kill the dreamers, we damn sure better kill their dreams.

    There's no such thing as the benevolent dictator, which makes fascism as doomed to failure as the rest. Democracy and Republic have been the only form of governance that allows people to be imperfect.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-29-10 at 06:14 PM.

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  3. #23
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    When people-- usually liberals of some stripe-- compare Fascism to Socialism and Communism, they are attempting to study Fascism through the same strictly materialistic lens through which Marx first envisioned Communism and through which Libertarians envision the perfect liberal State. Whether this is an accurate way of looking at the universe or not-- I believe not-- it is only capable of skimming the surface of Fascism, missing the depths. Fascism is concerned first and foremost with the human spirit, and the spiritual forces that influence it; it is concerned with giving man the sense of moral order and social belonging that he needs in order to lead a life of spiritual significance.

    My definition of Fascism is the ideal of the State as a whole organism, in which the citizens are parts of the healthy, functional whole. Each citizen has a role to play in the health and strength of the State, and the State has its role to play in the health and strength of its citizens-- not just their pocketbooks, but their spirits as well.
    In attempting to define fascism though, I don't think we are trying to define the "ideal fascist state" or what one would look like. I am simply trying to find the "fascist minimum", or what all fascist states up until this point have had in common. When doing that I would tend to look at what they did, rather than what they said they wanted to do in a book. In my opinion, history has shown that what a fascist did and what they said were usually two different matters.
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-29-10 at 07:48 PM.

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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I've been doing some research into Franco's Fascist Spain. It's very intresting.





    Clearly Franco's Fascist rule wasn't all bad... it could be argued that after the chaos of the Spanish Civil War that an authoritarian gov't was necessary for a time. The economic boom was remarkable, but it is noted that Spain didn't reach the level of economic development many other Western Euro nations did around that point.
    Thats why I was arguing in the other thread that he was not a true fascist at all. Sure one could argue, and he did strongly resemble a fascist during the civil war and just after when he went on his bloody crusade. But after franco came to power he failed to radicalize like hitler and mussolini he failed to go on a war of expansion. Thats why I would call franco for most of his time ruling spain a run of the mill dicatatorship. I think if you look at a lot of the WW2 era dictatorships in europe, or the latin american dictatorships they will all have this characteristic that sets them apart from fascism.
    Last edited by drz-400; 05-29-10 at 07:42 PM.

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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I was just in an argument with an individual of the Left (not to be confused with a global leftist) who was trying to convince people that Stalin's and Mao's dictator status made them fascist, and since fascism is traditionally of a right wing extreme, that it meant that their brand of communism was of the right.
    Mao was not a dictator though he did have fascist tendencies, but then many leading politicians around the world and in every country have such tendencies. As Korimyr and I have noted Fascism cannot be reasonably placed on the left-right political spectrum as it is more a system of thought than a system of government. The Soviet Union in general and especially under Stalin was in many ways Fascist.

    The motive of the Left is to cast the most violent century in history off of their shoulders and on to the Right. You have it correct. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, and other less than remarkable dictators were of the leftist school of social organization. Their communist and socialist systems are the reason there are hundreds of millions of corpses between the German border and Cambodia.
    That is an oversimplification of the situation.

    Both schools of thought (Hitler=right, Stalin=left) come down to the same mistake. History's greatest upheavals of peace and destruction of humanity have always gone back to theories of how to control and organize people. How to "perfect" humanity. It's this impractical scheming of the dreamers that cause so much death. They always seem to deny the existence of the human soul. It's the machine of "sameness" that refuses to acknowledge that one can't perfect humanity because humans aren't perfect. Other men (Phillip II, Thomas Muntzer, Stalin, Mao, etc.) later prove the dreamers wrong. If the twentieth century proved anything, it proved that though we can't kill the dreamers, we damn sure better kill their dreams.

    There's no such thing as the benevolent dictator, which makes fascism as doomed to failure as the rest. Democracy and Republic have been the only form of governance that allows people to be imperfect.
    Here I agree with you more or less.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    So the question is, is this a good definition of fascism?
    Your definition is good, but my it better, because we face today only one kind of really fascism, Islamic.
    ...the activities and agendas of organizations that embrace the jihadist goals of Islamo-fascism, including the implementation of Sharia (Islamic Law) in the U.S. and other non-Muslim countries; the establishment of Islam as the supreme faith worldwide; the reestablishment of an Islamic caliphate; and the destruction of Israel;
    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/g...183&type=issue
    Rom 6:23:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  7. #27
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfons View Post
    Your definition is good, but my it better, because we face today only one kind of really fascism, Islamic.


    http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/g...183&type=issue
    Not the topic of this thread.
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  8. #28
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    Mao was not a dictator though he did have fascist tendencies....
    C'mon. Let's not argue over symantecs. The man created his position and held it from 1949 to 1976 when he died. That's less than 30 years. His reforms consisted of cleansing rival politicial parties and citizens that did not fit his program. The man was a dictator. Paint a smile on him all you want, but fascism and dictatorship comes from both sides. The last century proved it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    That is an oversimplification of the situation.
    Well why would you think the leftists refuse Stalin's and Mao's politiical position in the world? The Left is supposed to be about love, harmony, equality, and utopia is it not? And when it goes horribly wrong? When the communist or socialist vision of utopoia kills hundreds of millions of people it must be cast off to the right? If the right refused to "own" Hitler, would we argue over what is and is not being simplified?

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  9. #29
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    Re: A Definition of Fascism

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    C'mon. Let's not argue over symantecs. The man created his position and held it from 1949 to 1976 when he died. That's less than 30 years. His reforms consisted of cleansing rival politicial parties and citizens that did not fit his program. The man was a dictator. Paint a smile on him all you want, but fascism and dictatorship comes from both sides. The last century proved it.
    You obviously do not now much about Chinese history, which isn't too surprising. Mao was stripped of positions and his ideology removed from the constitution of the CCP. That development is what was partly responsible for kicking off the Cultural Revolution, which was as much an attempt at radical reform as it was anything else. Also, far from being a purge the Cultural Revolution was essentially a power struggle that evolved into a near civil war and ultimately Mao failed in his every effort. Men like Zhou Enlai held him back and he didn't have the influence to get rid of them. He was not a dictator by any stretch.

    Well why would you think the leftists refuse Stalin's and Mao's politiical position in the world? The Left is supposed to be about love, harmony, equality, and utopia is it not? And when it goes horribly wrong? When the communist or socialist vision of utopoia kills hundreds of millions of people it must be cast off to the right?
    I was saying the talk of socialism killing hundreds of millions is oversimplification. Stalin targeted leftists (ever hear of Leon Trotsky?) just as much as he targeted rightists. I for one think there is evidence the Holodomor was a genocide and from my perspective that had nothing to do with leftism, but was merely the elite seeking to quell a national group for fear it would resist them. The famine under Mao was aggravated by a number of things that had no connection to socialism like the Four Pests campaign that upset the food chain thus increasing the locust population and natural disasters like the flooding of the Yellow River.

    If the right refused to "own" Hitler, would we argue over what is and is not being simplified?
    Yes, indeed we would. The word Socialism was in the party's name for a reason.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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