View Poll Results: Do you agree with the statement in the OP?

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Thread: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

  1. #1
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Do you agree with this statement:

    That you have a freedom in no way means you are entitled to the means necessary to exercise said freedom.

    Why or why not?
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-26-10 at 06:00 PM.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Political Freedom? Economic Freedom? Practical everyday freedom such as not being confined to a wheelchair? You need to be more specific here.

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    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Political Freedom? Economic Freedom? Practical everyday freedom such as not being confined to a wheelchair? You need to be more specific here.
    No, I do not, as the question revolves around the entitlement to means, not the specfic flavor of freedom.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    It really depends on the circumstances. When it comes to having legal representation at a criminal trial, you are entitled to the means. Getting your own TV channel to exercise your freedom of speech, not so much.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Do you agree with this statement:

    That you have a freedom in no way means you are entitled to the means necessary to exercise said freedom.

    Why or why not?
    If you mean means like the government giving away guns, bibles, printing presses, driving people to churches, driving people to protests, money to build churches, money to purchase printing presses, newspapers and so on or any other form of tax payer financial assistance then the answer is no. The only thing that makes a constitutional right a constitutional right is the fact you do not need permission from the government to exercise that right nor can the government restrict that right. The only exception would be the right for counsel since it does say in the 6th amendment "to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense"
    Last edited by jamesrage; 05-26-10 at 06:19 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    No, I do not, as the question revolves around the entitlement to means, not the specfic flavor of freedom.
    The type of freedom has a heavy impact on the necessary means though.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    This is a very strange question and you really do have to define what you mean by freedom. The question hinges on what "flavor" of freedom we are talking about. For instance, it is reasonable to consider political freedom meaningless without the means to exercise it, and it is not a contradiction to hold this belief and at the same time believe that one can be economically free without the means to participate in economic transactions. Clean up your question and it will probably lead to a better discussion.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 05-26-10 at 06:15 PM.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    If we're talking about right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of property, then you are not entitled to the means to acquire those. You may die, you may have your property taken because of debt.

    The trial case is interesting. Usually when we talk about rights, we talk about ideal situations. So I think I could make an exception for this case, but I would phrase it differently. Adequate representation is useful so that the state can apply correct justice (for our safety) rather than an entitlement for than accused.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Do you agree with this statement:

    That you have a freedom in no way means you are entitled to the means necessary to exercise said freedom.

    Why or why not?
    Depends if the means to exercise the freedoms can be reasonably procured. If they cannot, they must be provided, at least to the point they become procurable, and if the freedoms cannot be provided to at least that degree, then they do not exist.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 05-26-10 at 10:07 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Do you agree with this statement:

    That you have a freedom in no way means you are entitled to the means necessary to exercise said freedom.

    Why or why not?
    This is the classic debate about rights that often divides thinkers and feelers, liberal welfare socialists and constitutionalists

    A right is a protection. You can do something and not suffer government retribution as a result

    A right is not a just claim on the wealth of others

    a right does not require anyone else to act

    indeed, a right means government agents shall not act

    if a right to own a gun means someone has to provide you a gun that no longer is a right but an entitlement

    thus, you have a right to health care-all that you can afford

    I have no duty to pay for it



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