View Poll Results: Do you agree with the statement in the OP?

Voters
14. You may not vote on this poll
  • Strongly agree

    5 35.71%
  • Somewhat agree

    3 21.43%
  • Neither/both

    1 7.14%
  • Somewhat disagree

    2 14.29%
  • Strongly disagree

    3 21.43%
Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 69

Thread: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

  1. #41
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    This is a chat board

    not a court of law



    tell us why are rights just claims on the wealth of others

    morally right has no value--it is just as moral to say that using government force to take the property of some to pay for those who vote for the politicians in power is thuggery

    and I think it is ignorant to think that people who are politicians are doing something detached from keeping or gaining power. if dems really wanted to help people they wouldn't be proposing impeding private charity by not allowing 1 to 1 tax deductions for charitable contributions



  2. #42
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Akhil Amar made a distinction between collective rights vs individual rights
    That's not really the distincction here.

    SOME rights can ONLY be exercised thru some interaction with the government -- there is no protection from self-incrimination if there is no government to prosecute you; there is no right to trial when there is no goverment to hold said trial. In this case, the means must be provided because the rights, by their nature, cannot exist w/o it.

    But, as noted, this differs from the right to the free practice of religion, the freedom of moveement, the right to arms, etc -- these rights can be, and almost exclusovely are, exercised absent any necessary involvement by the government. As these rights can so exist, there is no entitlement to means.

  3. #43
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post

    Union membership would probably skyrocket. There would be more street crime as there would be more desperation. The death rate would rise. In general, society would function less well.
    how so, the global economy is going to destroy unions in everything but the public sector and a few trades that are necessarily local

    the street crime might rise for a few years but it is the dependency cycle that creates broken homes. Illegitimacy -fatherless homes is the single greatest factor for the production of criminals. Black illegitimacy was not any different than whites before the Great Society and other welfare programs.



  4. #44
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    That's not really the distincction here.

    SOME rights can ONLY be exercised thru some interaction with the government -- there is no protection from self-incrimination if there is no government to prosecute you; there is no right to trial when there is no goverment to hold said trial. In this case, the means must be provided because the rights, by their nature, cannot exist w/o it.

    But, as noted, this differs from the right to the free practice of religion, the freedom of moveement, the right to arms, etc -- these rights can be, and almost exclusovely are, exercised absent any necessary involvement by the government. As these rights can so exist, there is no entitlement to means.
    true-but its the left that seems to be confused

    not me. the collective rights-voting-does not take from one specific group and give to another. same with the right of "common defense" provided by the military.



  5. #45
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    This is a chat board

    not a court of law
    I know, but the rules of productive debate are largely the same. Use logic and cite your premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    tell us why are rights just claims on the wealth of others

    morally right has no value--it is just as moral to say that using government force to take the property of some to pay for those who vote for the politicians in power is thuggery

    and I think it is ignorant to think that people who are politicians are doing something detached from keeping or gaining power. if dems really wanted to help people they wouldn't be proposing impeding private charity by not allowing 1 to 1 tax deductions for charitable contributions
    Because I think it makes society work better as I have stated and as I have stated before, I think natural rights are a good general principal but I do not think they should be set in stone. Keep up.

    You may interpret it as thuggery, but that is because you have a different definition of morally right based on a different set of standards. Oh wait you just declared that to be invalid. Oops you just contradicted yourself.

  6. #46
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I know, but the rules of productive debate are largely the same. Use logic and cite your premise.



    Because I think it makes society work better as I have stated and as I have stated before, I think natural rights are a good general principal but I do not think they should be set in stone. Keep up.

    You may interpret it as thuggery, but that is because you have a different definition of morally right based on a different set of standards. Oh wait you just declared that to be invalid. Oops you just contradicted yourself.
    I think welfare socialism has made society far worse. we are breeding a nation of losers, dependents and destroying what made this nation the greatest in the world



  7. #47
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I think welfare socialism has made society far worse. we are breeding a nation of losers, dependents and destroying what made this nation the greatest in the world
    Changing the argument again I see. Can you back up your two assertions here? Also, are you ever going to back up your statement that liberals make people dependent to buy votes?

  8. #48
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Changing the argument again I see. Can you back up your two assertions here? Also, are you ever going to back up your statement that liberals make people dependent to buy votes?
    liberals create dependency

    liberals get the votes from that group

    so either its a lucky coincidence or intentional

    I tend to think dem leaders know what they are doing



    you can pretend it doesn't exist because you claim I cannot prove it
    but we all know that its true

    you won't admit it because you lose if you do



  9. #49
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    liberals create dependency

    liberals get the votes from that group

    so either its a lucky coincidence or intentional

    I tend to think dem leaders know what they are doing

    you can pretend it doesn't exist because you claim I cannot prove it
    but we all know that its true

    you won't admit it because you lose if you do
    Yay, now you are resorting to talking points. Keep going, this is fun.

  10. #50
    warrior of the wetlands
    TurtleDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:23 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    180,658

    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Changing the argument again I see. Can you back up your two assertions here? Also, are you ever going to back up your statement that liberals make people dependent to buy votes?
    that is an opinion

    a society that is full of dependent people who need a nanny state government probably appeals to you

    you also probably don't think AMerica is the greatest nation in the world-again that is an opinion

    but the fact is, more people are dependent on the government now than at any other time in the nation's history.

    and right now a majority of people in the usa are net tax consumers meaning they pay less to the government in federal taxes than what the government spends on them



Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •