View Poll Results: Do you agree with the statement in the OP?

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    1 7.14%
  • Somewhat disagree

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Thread: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

  1. #31
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Buzz words don't work on me.
    playing dumb doesn't cut it with me



  2. #32
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    playing dumb doesn't cut it with me
    I am not playing dumb, I am disarming you. You have a tendency to use buzz words in place of actual logical argument.

  3. #33
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    what party benefits?
    A party benefiting has nothing to do with intent. If you are a lawyer, you should know this.

  4. #34
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    I am not playing dumb, I am disarming you. You have a tendency to use buzz words in place of actual logical argument.
    you flatter yourself too much and you really aren't that good

    you want to call entitlements rights



  5. #35
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Then voting should not be paid for collectively.
    This illsutrates a distinction between kinds of rights.

    Some legal/polotical rights, like that od due process, the right to trial, the right to vote, etc, can -only- be exercised thru the action of and interaction with the cogernment, which is a 'means' paid for by everyone.

    But other rights - free speech, right to arms, right to religion - do not fall under that same pretext.

  6. #36
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you flatter yourself too much and you really aren't that good

    you want to call entitlements rights
    I bet you won't try calling me a buzzword again.

    Yes I do, I state that explicitly on the last page. Keep trying.

  7. #37
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    A party benefiting has nothing to do with intent. If you are a lawyer, you should know this.
    motive is a key ingredient


    Lets see if you are honest enough to answer a few easy questions

    1) do you agree that parties tend to push policies that will help that party maintain or gain power

    2) What party pushes for the expansion of welfare, income redistribution and handouts?

    3) what would happen if far less people were dependent on governnment handouts?



  8. #38
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    This illsutrates a distinction between kinds of rights.

    Some legal/polotical rights, like that od due process, the right to trial, the right to vote, etc, can -only- be exercised thru the action of and interaction with the cogernment, which is a 'means' paid for by everyone.

    But other rights - free speech, right to arms, right to religion - do not fall under that same pretext.
    Akhil Amar made a distinction between collective rights vs individual rights

    he attempted to walk a line between the statists and the standard model on gun control saying it is a right to be exercised by individuals collectively like jury duty.

    Of course you don't technically have an absolute right to serve on a jury

    You have to be called by the government and survive Voire Dire

    You as an individual have no recourse (ie no right) if you are dismissed for cause or through a preemptory challenge

    in criminal cases the defense can execise a batson challenge if they think you were excluded due to race but that isn't your call



  9. #39
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    motive is a key ingredient
    Yes, so please show it. Cite something. Again, being a lawyer, you should be familiar with the concept of evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Lets see if you are honest enough to answer a few easy questions

    1) do you agree that parties tend to push policies that will help that party maintain or gain power
    Yes. But they also push policies that they think are morally right and they also push policies that their donors want.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    2) What party pushes for the expansion of welfare, income redistribution and handouts?
    Yes, but again, this does not automatically mean that they are trying to buy vote. I am a liberal, I tend to vote democrat and I think it is the right thing to do. Many politicians have also gone on record stating that they believe entitlements are the right thing. I believe as an example there was a flap about Obama "wanting to spread the wealth around"

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    3) what would happen if far less people were dependent on governnment handouts?
    Union membership would probably skyrocket. There would be more street crime as there would be more desperation. The death rate would rise. In general, society would function less well.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 05-26-10 at 10:37 PM.

  10. #40
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    Re: Freedom = Entitlement to means?

    Rights debates never end up anywhere because a common ground is never found.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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