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Freedom = Entitlement to means?

Do you agree with the statement in the OP?

  • Total voters
    11
megaprogman said:
Yay, now you are resorting to talking points. Keep going, this is fun.
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you are playing a rope a dope that is dishonest

its a common tactic I have seen for years.
 
TurtleDude said:
that is an opinion

a society that is full of dependent people who need a nanny state government probably appeals to you

you also probably don't think AMerica is the greatest nation in the world-again that is an opinion

but the fact is, more people are dependent on the government now than at any other time in the nation's history.

and right now a majority of people in the usa are net tax consumers meaning they pay less to the government in federal taxes than what the government spends on them
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Well, if you are resorting to opinions, aka talking points, I will wait until you can present an actual argument and display its validity.
 
megaprogman said:
Well, if you are resorting to opinions, aka talking points, I will wait until you can present an actual argument and display its validity.
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whyt is society better off when more and more people are dependent on the government?
 
TurtleDude said:
you are playing a rope a dope that is dishonest

its a common tactic I have seen for years.
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No, I am trying to get you to have an actual debate and not just spout unfounded opinions that you cannot back up.
 
TurtleDude said:
whyt is society better off when more and more people are dependent on the government?
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I never said it was and I do not think it is. Personally, I think society is always better off when as many people are as prosperous as possible.
 
megaprogman said:
No, I am trying to get you to have an actual debate and not just spout unfounded opinions that you cannot back up.
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you want more welfare socialism I want less

sounds like a debate to me

you think rights require others to pay for them I do not

so how do we prove what we find better?

I prefer salmon you migh prefer cod
 
megaprogman said:
No, I am trying to get you to have an actual debate and not just spout unfounded opinions that you cannot back up.
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"unfounded opinions"

that is really stupid

an unfounded opinion would be something to the effect that drinking 15 beers a day and doing a pound of reefer a week is a better way to train for making the olympic marathon team than running 100 miles a week

something that is clearly contrary to known fact

what have I said that you can factually disprove?

so has the war on poverty made people more prosperous or more dependent? what is the poverty level now versus 40 years ago

is government bigger now than it was forty years ago?
 
TurtleDude said:
you want more welfare socialism I want less
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I don't really like welfare (as described by Reagan and his welfare queen statement). However, I do think that there is something to be said for things like job training, welfare to work, etc.

TurtleDude said:
sounds like a debate to me

you think rights require others to pay for them I do not
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Yes I do.

TurtleDude said:
so how do we prove what we find better?

I prefer salmon you migh prefer cod
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We cite things, use logic, and avoid emotional language and talking points. Ultimately though, I don't think either side can prove their beliefs, at least until we have computers powerful enough to simulate whole societies for the purposes of direct experimentation and even than we will probably just argue over which mathematical model is the best.

Actually, I prefer Tilapia.
 
TurtleDude said:
"unfounded opinions"

that is really stupid

an unfounded opinion would be something to the effect that drinking 15 beers a day and doing a pound of reefer a week is a better way to train for making the olympic marathon team than running 100 miles a week

something that is clearly contrary to known fact

what have I said that you can factually disprove?

so has the war on poverty made people more prosperous or more dependent? what is the poverty level now versus 40 years ago

is government bigger now than it was forty years ago?
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It is unfounded until you can back it up and it is clearly known, than it should be easy to do so. I am at your mercy.

004_poverty_rate.png


It appears to be about the same as it was 40 years ago, but surely you are not discounting economic development, gobalism, and the rise of europe and asia during that time.

Anyway, it looks like I am not going to get anything out of you. Good night.
 
megaprogman said:
I don't really like welfare (as described by Reagan and his welfare queen statement). However, I do think that there is something to be said for things like job training, welfare to work, etc.



Yes I do.



We cite things, use logic, and avoid emotional language and talking points. Ultimately though, I don't think either side can prove their beliefs, at least until we have computers powerful enough to simulate whole societies for the purposes of direct experimentation and even than we will probably just argue over which mathematical model is the best.

Actually, I prefer Tilapia.
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tilapia's a bit bland for me but I know people who like to bowfish for them
 
megaprogman said:
It is unfounded until you can back it up and it is clearly known, than it should be easy to do so. I am at your mercy.

004_poverty_rate.png


It appears to be about the same as it was 40 years ago, but surely you are not discounting economic development, gobalism, and the rise of europe and asia during that time.

Anyway, it looks like I am not going to get anything out of you. Good night.
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in other words, trillions spent-not much accomplished.
 
TurtleDude said:
in other words, trillions spent-not much accomplished.
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I agree, just handing people money is not going to accomplish anything, but there are other forms of entitlements, such as tech school. In the end, I personally believe that there are people who cannot be helped because they do not want to be. The best we can do with those guys is to make sure they do not cause problems for others. However, if someone is trying to make their life better and is giving honest effort, I have no qualms about taxing those who are better for to provide them with that opportunity.

Also, I just like the texture of Tilapia. I am big on texture when it comes to food. :)
 
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megaprogman said:
I agree, just handing people money is not going to accomplish anything, but there are other forms of entitlements, such as tech school. In the end, I personally believe that there are people who cannot be helped because they do not want to be. The best we can do with those guys is to make sure they do not cause problems for others. However, if someone is trying to make their life better and is giving honest effort, I have no qualms about taxing those who are better for to provide them with that opportunity.

Also, I just like the texture of Tilapia. I am big on texture when it comes to food. :)
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cool, swordfish is my favorite and the texture rocks.

I think those who pay more taxes should be entitled to additional votes
 
TurtleDude said:
cool, swordfish is my favorite and the texture rocks.

I think those who pay more taxes should be entitled to additional votes
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I think the flavor of swordfish is too strong and "fishy"

Several people have stated that about the vote thing.
 
The best way to help the poor is to give them work opportunities: get rid of the minimum wage.
 
phattonez said:
The best way to help the poor is to give them work opportunities: get rid of the minimum wage.
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Ok that statement confuses me. You wish to give them opportunity but than you want to take away opportunity?
 
Minimum wage does not provide opportunities. By making it illegal to hire below a certain wage, it ensures that certain people with little to no experience will not be hired.
 
megaprogman said:
Ok that statement confuses me. You wish to give them opportunity but than you want to take away opportunity?
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no contradiction

many people-especially new workers or younger ones are not worth per hour the minimum wage so a business loses money by hiring them and they lose opportunity

I love people saying you cannot raise a family on minimum wage (you cannot buy a mercedes on it either)

most of us got minimum wage jobs out of the way in HS or college. I worked at a law firm for 5 bucks an hour while in College just to decide if I wanted to invest three years and 45K (then) to go to law school

but I also got experience that was valuable when I applied to big law firms for big salaries a few years later.
 
Goobieman said:
Do you agree with this statement:

That you have a freedom in no way means you are entitled to the means necessary to exercise said freedom.

Why or why not?
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Your question is not clear. Let me explain what freedom is:

You have certain unalienable natural rights regarding life, liberty, and property.

You have a right to do things for yourself and use your own property. You have a right to live, travel, buy, sell, own, use, and defend your property.

You do NOT have a right to the lives or property of others, or the fruits of their labor. You do NOT have a right to force others to provide things for you--i.e. welfare, education, housing, food, medical care, etc., which is a form of slavery.
 
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